Author Topic: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?  (Read 9275 times)

Offline Rolf

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I'm want to make a breech plug for a 0.625 caliber smooth bore pistol barrel.
I' ve decided to use either 3/4" UNC or UNF threads. Which is best?

On a 1/2" long plug UNC will give 5 threads, UNF will give 8 threads.
UNF will give the most threads, but each individual UNC thread is stronger than each individual UNF thread.

What will give me the safest breech plug?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 10:20:06 PM »
I would use the UNF with 8 threads in 1/2 inch.
Dennis
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Offline bgf

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 10:23:42 PM »
Me too.  The commercial ones almost all use 3/4-16.  My analysis is that you usually lose at least part of a thread even with careful use of a bottom tap, so UNF>=7 threads, while UNC>=4 threads in this application.

billd

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 04:02:36 AM »
3/4-16. 

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 04:12:09 AM »
Fine threads are stronger.
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mjm46@bellsouth.net

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2012, 02:04:54 PM »
What is UNC and UNF?

billd

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2012, 02:25:50 PM »
3/4-10 = Unified National Coarse, 3/4-16 = Unified National Fine,  
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 02:28:37 PM by Bill D »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2012, 02:27:38 PM »
Consensus seems to be that more threads are stronger.    How many old barrels have you seen with fine threads?   Most
had a rather coarse thread.   When we bought the Paris barrel business, they used a coarse thread, 5/8x11, and 3/4x10,
since they were the closest to the old original barrels.   This is just food for thought, we now use the fine threads, easier
to make and use, but, are they really stronger?........Don

Offline alyce-james

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 04:52:15 PM »
Good morning Sir. As a machinist, for the largest tractor manufacturing Co. most of my life. UNC 3/4" is by far the strongest for this application.   AJ
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Offline Rolf

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 05:42:36 PM »
Thank you for your replies.

I've tried to read up on threads and strength in google. As far as I understand most of the load is carried by the first two threads. Very little of the load is carried bee on the third thread. According to this logic UNC threads should be safer.

Blackley uses Witworth 3/4"-10  which is almost identical to UNC 3/4"-10 .
Most all US barrel makers use UNF 3/4-18.

I've ordered a tap drill, tap and die for UNF 3/4"-18. It's used by most US barrel makers and therefore should be regarded proven safe. But I do find things a bit confusing. It would be nice to se some tests done.

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 11:01:43 PM by Rolf »

Offline alyce-james

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 07:03:42 PM »
Rolf; The world of threads is like the world of numbers, never ending. If you research the world of threads you will have started a life long new hobby. AJ.
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 09:25:59 PM »
Just a thought. For brass, one ONLY uses coarse threads. A brass barrel is too soft & weak for a reliable fine-thread steel breech plug (in general, never use fine threads with brass).

That kind of agrees with the above suggestions of UNC (coarse thread) being preferable.

The fact that most modern breechplugs happen to be fine thread means absolutely nothing, in my firm opinion.

I can tell you how I learned this about brass, first by observation of a blunderbuss that lost its plug, followed by a bit of reading, if you really want to know.

Frank Savage

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 11:10:44 PM »
Good morning Sir. As a machinist, for the largest tractor manufacturing Co. most of my life. UNC 3/4" is by far the strongest for this application.   AJ

From the point of considering just the brute force part, yes. But when considering the:
- need to pre-tighten the face of the plug against shoulder on the end of the thread as much that no blow-by occurs when the load burns (and significant force is aplied backwards, being capable to slightly compress the plug face-just very elastic deformation)
- the need to seal possible blow-by through the thread in case of some "inconvenience"
- the need to leave as much fully healty threads as long as possible in case of begining of rust forming in the thread (from any reason),

here the finer thread works better. But you must take into account that too fine thread is from some point prone to more movement under elastic deformation, thus creating blow-bys into the thread upon firing (the movement of the material is about the same as in the coarse thread-but tolerantions of every turn of the thread adds up). A 3/4-16 is gettinī slightly on the too fine side. Itīs being done, it can be done, it can be used-but without realy close tolerantions it will send the log-term safety margin to $#*!.
Would go for UNC 3/4-10 or UBF 3/4-12

Offline davec2

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2012, 12:26:57 AM »
In general, fine threads are made to closer tolerances and are stronger


Unified national coarse. UNC is the most commonly used thread on general-purpose fasteners. Coarse threads are deeper than fine threads and are easier to assemble without cross threading. The manufacturing tolerances can be larger than for finer threads, allowing for higher plating tolerances. UNC threads are normally easier to remove when corroded, owing to their sloppy fit. However, a UNC fastener can be procured with a class 3 (tighter) fit if needed (classes to be covered later).

Unified national fine. UNF thread has a larger minor diameter than UNC thread, which gives UNF fasteners slightly higher load-carrying and better torque-locking capabilities than UNC fasteners of the same identical material and outside diameter. The fine threads have tighter manufacturing tolerances than UNC threads, and the smaller lead angle allows for finer tension adjustment. UNF threads are the most widely used threads in the aerospace industry.


There are more elaborate thread form for even greater strength, like the "J" form thread:

UNJC and UNJF threads. "J" threads are made in both external and internal forms. The external thread has a much larger root radius than the corresponding UNC, UNR, UNK, or UNF threads. This radius is mandatory and its inspection is required, whereas no root radius is required on UNC, UNF, or UNEF threads. Since the larger root radius increases the minor diameter, a UNJF or UNJC fastener has a larger net tensile area than a corresponding UNF or UNC fastener. This root radius also gives a smaller stress concentration factor in the threaded section. Therefore, high-strength (180 ksi or more) bolts usually have "J" threads.

These more sophisticated thread forms are more than what would be required for a breech plug application in the traditional barrel materials.

Of more importance than the thread coarseness is the class of fit.  A sloppy fit will negate whatever strength there may be in any thread form or number.  The threads need to be a very close fit to achieve full strength.  Here is the definition of thread classes:

Thread classes are distinguished from each other by the amounts of tolerance and allowance. The designations run from IA to 3A and IB to 3B for external and internal threads, respectively. A class I is a looser fitting, general-purpose thread; a class 3 is the aerospace standard thread, and has a tighter tolerance. (The individual tolerances and sizes for the various classes are given in the SAE Handbook

In general, a fine thread with a Class 3 fit is the strongest.  And, if you want to get crazy, there is a Class 5 category which is an interference fit that must be precisely made because the external thread is actually larger than the internal thread and, as the material yields during assembly, the threads are exactly the same size when fitted.  Easy to screw this up and make the external threads too big to be assembled.

Bottom line, for a black powder firearm using typical barrel materials, using either fine or coarse threads will work and that point has been proven by many barrel makers over centuries.  I just like to make them fit tight.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 12:57:14 AM »
Some good info here.   I usually found that breeching a brass barrel was always fun.  Brass is really hard to work with.
We chased all of those coarse theads on a lathe, if you got them just a little too big, talking a thousandth, you would have
trouble getting them into a barrel, and if they were just .001 small, the would go in so easy....too easy.  It was very
difficult to get one exactly right.   I was so happy when we went to the fine threads........Don

Offline Joe Stein

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 03:56:40 AM »
There is a lot of good information about bolts and nuts here: http://www.boltscience.com/pages/info.htm

Offline JTR

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 04:53:23 AM »
Coarse threads have more metal mass interlocked than fine, so NC is stronger than NF.

Fine threads are stronger.

Huh?

John   :D
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 06:12:41 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »
Guys,

UNC threads better resist failure by dialation (thread stripping) but fine thread bolts better resist failure by tension.  In my life experience, thread stripping of fine threads (especially those dratted very fine metric threads) is far more common than bolt failure in tension.  Certainly either would be adequate for a barrel breech.  However, it surely is easier to tap a 3/4-16 than a 3/4-10.

In the topic on 18th c breech threads HDTDT, two of the original tap sets shown are 0.592-14 (coarse threads) and 0.734-14 (midway between coarse and fine threads).

Jim

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 02:18:36 PM »
Coarse threads have more metal mass interlocked than fine, so NC is stronger than NF.

Fine threads are stronger.

Huh?

John   :D

Years ago, I was told by my old boss that coarse threads were stronger, and I always went by that. Then when this topic came up, I looked up threads on the web, and a site showed that fine threads are stronger. 'Huh?' is right.
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Kelhammer

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 02:22:39 PM »
The Machinery Handbook will tell you fine threads are stronger.

billd

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2012, 03:18:22 PM »
I got stuck in work this morning writing programs to thread draw tubes for Kitagawa hydraulic chucks.  This is a bar that goes from a hydraulic actuator to a lathe chuck to open and close it.  It relies totally on the shear strength of the threads, push-pull.  The manufactures print calls for M50x1.5 on one end and M85x1.5 on the other end.  These are pretty fine threads for something that works behind a 10" hydraulic cylinder with up to 400 PSI. 

I would think if coarse threads were stronger the manufacturer would require them.

Bill

Offline Don Getz

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
I would say at this time that either one is more than adequate for a breech plug in a barrel shooting black powder...Don

Online Bob Roller

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Re: 3/4" UNC thread or 3/4" UNF. Which should I Use for a breechplug?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2012, 04:27:49 PM »
I used the fine thread on all the breech plugs I have made which haven't been many
because I rarely do anything with barrels.I do use UNC mostly 4x40's for lock screws
and once in a while UNF 4x48. Hammer screws are always UNF 6x40 and barrel rib screws
are 6x48 on the very rare occasion I install a rib.I have never seen a 1/4x20 thread on a
percussion nipple but always a 1/4x28 or a diameter variant with the 28TPI for reapairs.
I have a 1/4x80 tap and die in my assortment of weird tools and a 14x20 which is .244
instead of .250.
Getting back to breech plugs,I don't remember ever seeing a coarse threaded plug made in
Bill Large's shop in the 33 years I knew and helped him.He would on occasion use a left hand
thread as a joke on someone he knew but these are rare.
There was some foreign outfit that had a no thread,dowel pin fit plug captured by a pin that
went thru it.I think it was from Japan. I hope nobody gets the idea that this is a good idea and
I think it was a production short cut by some obscure company.
Another thing to watch for are older imports that have only a couple of coarse threads holding
the plug in. I took one out of a poorly made copy of an 1803 Harpers Ferry that fell out on the
floor after a couple of turns.I sent it back to the dealer and told him that big trouble was lurking
and the guns he got from that importer should all be considered as defective until closely examined
by someone that knew what the function of a breech plug was.

Bob Roller