Author Topic: Looking for opinions on unmarked rifle (Read 13082 times)

Buck · « **on:** August 26, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »

I recently picked this rifle up and I am looking for opinions on a maker. I believe it to be from the Allentown-Northhampton area. It is 45 cal. smooth bore, originally flint (reconverted) and has some interesting details. It's not a spectacular piece but it was talking to me (I really like the architecture). I am aware of all it's flaws, it has some restoration in front of the lock (you can see in the photo) and about 16" of the forestock was replaced. The restoration was executed well, I am interested to hear opinions on area and possible maker.
Thank you.
Buck

jdm · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2012, 01:16:46 AM »

Buck,
I will give you some of my guesses. This is where I would start looking. S. States, there's been some talk of him here lately. Conrad Horn similar style. maybe someone who worked with Nicolas Hawk. Just a guess as where to start. I could be way off base. It has the Northampton style trigger guard. I believe your right in thinking it is from that area.

JIM

Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2012, 01:37:21 AM »

Jim,
Thanks for the reply, I was thinking a possible Hawk associate myself. Aside from the general architecture, hardware and shape of the patchbox, I had thought that the arches in the finial and the lid where something I had seen on Hawks patchboxes. Thanks for the input.
Buck

mr. no gold · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26, 2012, 03:15:41 AM »

Nice rifle! Thank you for posting the photos. It is always a pleasure to see a pretty one. Two other possibilties for a maker come to my mind: J. Georg, and Peter Young. Rifles by both makers are shown in the Library. Take a look, and you may find some similarities. Thanks again.
Dick

jdm · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2012, 08:18:09 PM »

Buck,
What is on the side plate? Can't make it out.

Majorjoel · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2012, 04:03:06 AM »

A wonderful rifle Buck! I can answer your question jdm, on the side plate you will find my initials J H. Another one of those fortuitous coincidence's

! I really like the architecture of this piece and the patchbox is what I would call "art decco" way before the term was ever used. Thanks Buck for posting it!

Buck · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:44:27 AM »

Sorry my computer has been down for a couple of days.
Jim, as Joel said the intials ar JH, but I do not believe it to be original to the rifle. I thought that the side plate was not original as it doesn't follow the mortice perfectly. I could be wrong, I plan to take some better pictures of it tomorrow and post them. Its a nice little rifle, it struck me as interesting.
Buck

Majorjoel · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2012, 09:54:57 PM »

I just borrowed a book "Accouterments III" from a friend and think I have found the maker of Buck's fine rifle! On page 15 there is a longrifle by John Meals ca. 1820 that shares many similarities to this rifle pictured. I believe John Meals made this piece. Take a gander and see what you all think.

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2012, 10:20:51 PM »

Hey Joel, Can you get a picture on for us? I don't have that book. This will
make Noel Happy. Wish I could recall where I saw alot of info on John Meals.
A memory is a terrible thing to lose.
John Meals (1789-1852) produced firearms in Pennsylvania in various counties of the state. Allegedly he never repeated his work and each firearm was a unique item. (See Whisker, 1990: 70; Kindig, 1983: 521-525.)

Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2012, 11:08:52 PM »

Rob,
Thanks, I don't have that book either. There are a couple of Meals rifles in "Thoughts" and I recall seeing 1 or 2 in Whiskers "Gunsmiths of York County." It is possible that Joel may have picked up on something, the stock architecture is certainly extremely similar but the lack of engraving leaves me skeptical. This mans work (from the few rifles that I have seen) appear to be embelished to the max. I'd like to see the picture that Joel has.
Joel,
Maybe you would remember, there was a table at Princeton that had several beautiful rifles that were really "bright." The rifle that was at the top of the table with 2 patch boxes and all the elaborate brass, silver and ivory inlays was a John Meals rifle. A spectacular piece, that is the rifle pictured in Whiskers York book.
Noel

Majorjoel · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2012, 11:50:18 PM »

Noel and Rob, I will make scans of the rifle in the Accoutrements book and send you both copies. The book's rifle is a fancy engraved piece by Meals, but it has everything in all of the right places that Noel's rifle has. The brass toe plate goes up under the trigger guard, the long comb inlay, as well as the basic architecture. I am certain we have found our man! Will PM you this evening, Joel

jdm · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2012, 12:40:54 AM »

Sorry guys, I'm not in the Meals camp. The quality of engraving on Bucks gun ( what little there is ) is not close to the Meals rifle. No offense Buck. I like your rifle . I still think Northampton county.

Buck · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2012, 02:40:52 AM »

Joel,
Thanks for the pictures. I understand your conclusion, I see a similarity in Architecture but in review of the Meals rifles I have to respectfully disagree. Meals elaborately decorated his rifles and this rifle just doesn't have it. I agree with Jim, I believe it to be from the Northampton-Allentown area. Joel again thanks for the pictures, by the way the pictures that you sent were of the rifle that was in Princeton. I thought you and I looked at it, there was a spectacular N Hawk and Abraham Schweitzer at the same table. That Meals rifle is a beauty.
Noel

mr. no gold · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2012, 03:55:30 AM »

To my eye, the architecture of John Meals' work is his signature. I have wondered privately if the original S'gost gunsmith might have descipled to Meals. There are some odd similarities in style, ornamentation and architecture. Meals was his own man and built unique rifles, but I do not see the piece under considertion here to be by his hand.
Dick

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:03:34 AM »

I had the same thought today when i saw picturrs of his work. Or perhaps he just borrowed some elements he liked. We've yet to find a gun from the previous generations to William even though we know they were guns Smiths

Buck · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:20:15 AM »

Dick,
I agree, the Meals rifle that I held in August was like nothing I had seen before. It certainly wasn't regimented towards any style or school. It had 2 patchboxes, several ivory inlays along with multiple silver inlays and extensive Brass panels incorporated into both patch boxes. Every piece of decor was elaborately engraved. Rob, Dick brings up a good point with Meals and the S'gosts. It certainly is food for thought. Thanks Dick.
Noel

mr. no gold · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2012, 06:10:19 AM »

A pleasure Noel. That Meals that you were looking at was likely one of the finest known by him. Kindig had one that was a screamer. Wonder if they are the same gun?
Dick

Majorjoel · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2012, 12:04:28 PM »

I have seen and handled so many very fine longrifles this summer that to try and remember details of one makes my head spin!

It is comparable to trying to remember what last weekends sunsets were like. Anyway, I did accomplish another look into Noels unsigned rifle with high regards and respect for everyones experienced opinions. What drew me to my conclusions were all of the inlays shared with both rifles. For those members without pictures; the wear plates ( belly plates) extending from the entry thimble to the trigger guard, the toe plates both ran the full length from butt plate to below the aft trigger guard extention (very unusual), comb plates from top BP extention tapering to a point all the way forward to the comb apex. Architecturally, the cheek piece's match up very closely. When I remove all of the fancy engraving and all of the extra inlay details from the book rifle, leaving just the unadorned brass shared by both rifles, I see John Meals in Noels rifle. Perhaps it left his shop before he had the chance to embellish or sign it?? Just some thoughts here. The difficulty in finding attributions for many unsigned pieces is a very stimulating challenge. I really enjoy this quest!

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2012, 02:54:42 PM »

Joel I've seen an equal number of fully engraved and unengraved rifles made by the Shrecks. It was a matter of what they were willing to pay for. I'm still seeing meals here.

Buck · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2012, 03:03:16 PM »

Joel,
Thanks for the input and as always I respect your opinion. I agree with everything you said the cheek piece is identical as is the unembelished brass hardware. Also the shape of the back end of the rifles are extremely similar. The thing I noticed (aside from those details and the fact there isn't any engraving) is the rifle is extremely slender. The Meals rifle had more girth, so did all of the published rifles by Meals. I, like yourself, had the pleasure of holding many rifles this summer and they all kind of blend together. I would have to say that out of all the rifles that I examined this year the Meals rifle really stood out from the rest, due to its extraordinary Architecture and ornamentation. Thanks Joel for the help. The search continues!

Dick,
You are correct that Meals rifle probably was his finest, it was different from the rest. I looked at "Thoughts" yesterday after Joel posted and it isn't any of the rifles that Kindig pictured in the book. This one surpasses those 3 by leaps and bounds. I will send you the photos that Joel sent Rob and I. Always good to hear from you.
Noel

Majorjoel · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2012, 03:35:14 PM »

On a side note, I mentioned the book I borrowed from a friend, "Accouterments III" by James R. Johnston. As a matter of fact, I borrowed three books "Accouterments I, II, & III". I just want to say that these books are super\great and cover a lot of artifacts not seen by me in all of my other reference books! Johnston also gave many informative biography's and comments with each item pictured. I plan to scour the country side in search of copies of each book for my own library!

Buck · « **Reply #21 on:** September 01, 2012, 02:45:28 AM »

I have found a rifle on line that has similar engraving and is from the Allentown school. Jim H. Francis Antique rifles. Though the patch boxes are totally different it has identical engraving, the perforated outline around the box and the double half circles or arches on the finial and the lid. The stock architecture is close, with the cheek piece identical in form. It would appear that the half circles or arches might be a signature of the area.
Buck

jdm · « **Reply #22 on:** September 02, 2012, 02:10:12 AM »

I read where Nicolas Hawks son Peter was also a gunsmith. I wonder if there is a signed gun by him floating around out there? JIM

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #23 on:** September 02, 2012, 03:51:20 PM »

Here's a buttstock to a swivel. All I have is the butt, which is in very nice shape. Patchbox seems to a little similar in construction, brass applied along top of comb. This is a later percussion-era swivel, probably not Hawk, but a protege.

Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** September 02, 2012, 06:12:21 PM »

Acer,
Thanks for the post. Its hard to tell from the photo, is there any engraving on the finial or lid? Here is another detail I noticed and was discussing with Rob, there is a screw missing forward the trigger guard that exposes the ramrod. Is this a common feature, he has the same condition on the States rifle, Or am I grabbing for nothing and it's just a missing screw?
Noel

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Author Topic: Looking for opinions on unmarked rifle (Read 13082 times)