how to make jaeger nosecap with "wings" from sheet brass

[rich pierce]

Some Germanic rifles have brass nosecaps that are not squared off at the rear junction with the forestock, but extend rearward and downward toward the ramrod groove.  In many cases on guns of nice quality these were may have been investment cast like the ramrod thimbles etc.  Has anyone here tried to make one of sheet brass and do you see any complications compared to a normal nosecap forming?  Seems to me I'd just be making a long nosecap that would be tapered at the rear.

[Dave Dolliver]

I have made several.  You will also note that many of these are also of schnauble shape (sp) in that they are swelled slightly and rounded at the muzzle end.   My method was to cut a forward piece of 1/4"  brass, form
a ramrod groove piece of 1/16" brass, and 2 sides of 1/8" brass and braze them all together with 900 degree silver braze.
I held the pieces together while brazing by drilling and tapping in several places for small brass bolts (model train parts). Then a lot of filing to get the shape I wanted.

Dave Dolliver

[Jim Kibler]

This may be a bit off the question at hand, but I'm curious about the mention of original European parts being INVESTMENT cast.  Do you have any information or documentation that allows this conclusion to be drawn?  

Thanks,
Jim

[Dave B]

I remmeber Jerry Huddleston talking about just this issue but dont remember where he got his information on it.

[rich pierce]

This may be a bit off the question at hand, but I'm curious about the mention of original European parts being INVESTMENT cast.  Do you have any information or documentation that allows this conclusion to be drawn?  

Thanks,
Jim

I'm relying only on one piece of information, and it is a conclusion made, rather than a period reference.  Hence it is still unproven, but  the conclusion of a qualified and experienced student of the techniques used on originals.  We've all seen very fine and complex sand castings.

Eric Kettenberg, in his article in the August 2003 Muzzle Blasts, The Anatomy of an Austrian Hunting rifle, Part II, "It is clear that a wooden pattern was used as the casting master, since the inside surfaces of the buttplate retain traces of wood grain and chisel markings, which were clearly transferred to the casting.  The buttplate is uniformly about 3/32" in thickness.  After examining all the furniture on this arm and considering the remarkable detail and sharpness of the castings,  I conclude that all the brassware was investment cast (or wax-cast).  This is further reinforced by the fact that there is absolutely no residual sand texture on any of the brassware, and in fact I cannot find any flaws either."

[T*O*F]

Because of the reverse tapers, it's probably why so many of them have nosecaps of horn that were filed in place.  Much easier if the gunsmith wasn't set up for casting.

[flintriflesmith]

I'm relying only on one piece of information, and it is a conclusion made, rather than a period reference.  Hence it is still unproven, but  the conclusion of a qualified and experienced student of the techniques used on originals.  We've all seen very fine and complex sand castings.

Eric Kettenberg, in his article in the August 2003 Muzzle Blasts, The Anatomy of an Austrian Hunting rifle, Part II, "It is clear that a wooden pattern was used as the casting master, since the inside surfaces of the buttplate retain traces of wood grain and chisel markings, which were clearly transferred to the casting.  The buttplate is uniformly about 3/32" in thickness.  After examining all the furniture on this arm and considering the remarkable detail and sharpness of the castings,  I conclude that all the brassware was investment cast (or wax-cast).  This is further reinforced by the fact that there is absolutely no residual sand texture on any of the brassware, and in fact I cannot find any flaws either."

Seems to me that this paragraph, if quoted correctly, contradicts itself. The buttplate used a wooden pattern. Investment, AKA wax, casting used a carved wax pattern. I believe that casting the waxes in molds comes later. Maybe it was supposed to say that the other brass mounts (besides the butt piece) were wax cast.
Gary

[rich pierce]

Others know far more than I do about wax casting, but my limited understanding is that the master can be made of most anything. 

Maybe we could make wax casting another topic as I'm interested in how to make a slightly more complex nosecap from sheet brass and whether there are any tricks or things to watch out for.

[Dave B]

Rich I have two types of Jaeger muzzle caps both are cast but they could just as easily been swaged up from a mandrel just like I've made for my early flint rifles one piece caps.

[Acer Saccharum]

Plaster can be used to make a mold off a master. Then wax is injected into DAMP plaster. Wax won't stick to damp plaster. Lost wax casting has been used for centuries, from Etruscan times on up.

There are some super quality sands used for casting that will pick up tremendous detail from the masters.

How were gun parts cast? I don't really know. All I know is that I have seen old castings that have extremely fine detail, and are very thin, thinner than what I thought was possible by today's standards.

[Ron Scott]

I think you will find a mix of methods were being used in Europe.  I have a Poser Rifle from Prague that has cast mounts. My Felix Mieir Fowler has  mounts that are fabricated from sheet silver. My unmarked Vienna Rifle has a cast Trigger Guard, with a Butt Plate that appears to have a cast finial mated to a sheet brass plate.

Both the Vienna Guns will be examined and photographed in detain before and during the Vienna Flintlock Class being offered for the 2013 NMLRA Seminars.