Author Topic: Aqua fortis  (Read 9683 times)

voyageur1688

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Aqua fortis
« on: December 18, 2008, 03:22:08 AM »
 From the helpful advice of a member, I was told that I could use aqua fortis to stain my stock. Where can I get this stuff?
 Thanks.
 Todd

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 04:14:51 AM »
You can get it from Track of the Wolf (.com). Its made by Wahkon Bay.
But this is not the pure stuff if the supplier has maintained the formula used some years back.
It is adulterated with hydrochloric acid and this tends to muddy the color.
If one of the members here who makes his own lives close you could get some from him.
Its not important until the rifle is in its final stages.
You can probably find nitric acid at the local HS chemical lab and they might sell you a couple of ounces and that will make enough stain for several rifles. Or you can likely find it online.
Making the stain is not difficult but requires care and a recipe which has been posted on this sight many times.
IMO its the best stain for maple.

Dan
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George F.

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 04:31:30 AM »
I just got finished looking at the MSDS on Nitric Acid. IT'S SOME REALLY NASTY STUFF.... AND REQUIRES PROTECTION TO YOUR EYES, SKIN, LUNGS. AND IN SHORT....YOU/US. I don't know how to transfer the data sheet to this site, but I think it would be a good idea if someone would do that, especially since we advocate it as THE best coloring agent for sugar maple.... Geo.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 08:43:22 PM »
I've had very good luck using Ferric Nitrate crystals.  This is the compound that is made when you dissolve iron in Nitric Acid.

These crystals are just dissolved in water, and applied the same as Aqua fortis.

Very clean, very safe, does a great job bringing out the curl.

Hope this helps.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 09:04:52 PM »
Smallpatch,
I have Ferric Nitrate crystals but don't know how much water to add. What is your mix/recipe?
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 09:08:36 PM »
Robert,

I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think it says right on the jar.  I'll try to look at mine this evening and get back to you.

If I remember correctly, that jar makes 8 oz of solution????

Maybe someone else will chime in??
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 09:11:57 PM by smallpatch »
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Dane

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 09:34:06 PM »
Quote
Robert,

I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think it says right on the jar.  I'll try to look at mine this evening and get back to you.

If I remember correctly, that jar makes 8 oz of solution?Huh
Where can I buy the ferric acid? I have tried the vinegar/iron mix and am not happy with the grayish/black color that I am getting with it. I want a reddish brown color.

I have two different mixes of aqua fortis and both make a dark almost black color on the maple I have used it on.

Dennis
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 09:55:05 PM »
Ferric Nitrate crystals - http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinachems.htm

IIRc - The bottle says mix at 3 to 1 - use distilled water and then dilute if need be........

FWIW - here are some samples

Top piece was my control - some old original Wahkon Bay. Lowere piece is Vinegar and Iron on the left, Ferric Nitrate Crystals in the center, and some AF made using B-C Plum Brown (which is 10% nitric) and iron scrap. Just a thin coat of linseed oil varnish was used over the stains.


These two pieces were stained with FN crystals only on the left (top section only - the darker section on the front flat was another experiment) and FN mixed with Ferric Chloride made from crystals (in imitation of the W/Bay mix) on the right - the latter mix when applied properly and heated for a somewhat longer period (just watch the color change) does not necessarily muddy the grain and gives a more red orange color in my experience.....both were heated with a heat gun on low (350° F) and then netralized with a strong mix of water and washing soda.

Both pieces were then finished with: first two coats of heat polymerized linseed oil (Tried and True Oil) followed by four coats of linseed oil varnish (Tried and True Varnish with some additional rosin and lead dryer added) - the latter in imitation of the homemade brew ala the original violin varnish....each coat was allowed to dry thoroughly in the hot summer sun (at 6500' above sea level here in so Colorado the summer sun is intense)

Dennis try diluting your AF mixes with some fresh apple cider vinegar (sounds weird but the additional acid should help kick it to the red side, or swipe with hydrogen peroxide) or distilled water - Please experiment on scrap
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 09:58:29 PM by ChuckBurrows »
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2008, 10:49:35 PM »
If you use Ferric Nitrate crystals do you still have to neutralize?
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 12:29:38 AM »
Quote
If you use Ferric Nitrate crystals do you still have to neutralize?
see my post under Ferric Nitrate......
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 01:28:02 AM »
MSDS is a good idea I suppose, but I don't think you can get nitric without having one included.

This is a valid concern, and people should be careful and understand its noit Kool-aide, but...
If you look up the MSDS on a great many common things it will scare the daylights out of you. You need the same protection for methanol as nitric acid by the MSDS (IIRC). No its not a vigorous as the acid but its a definite health hazard and will kill you if the play comes right.

Nitric is a strong ACID.
Acid is bad if you get it one your skin, on your clothing, breath fumes etc etc.
People must take precautions.
But then....
Ever gas your vehicle without properly grounding yourself first???  Good way to have a serious hot foot but we do it ALL THE TIME. Did you know that gasoline is an EXTREMELY powerful explosive? As good as nitroglycerine pound per pound? Perhaps it needs to be regulated.
Making boiled linseed oil is dangerous too.
Casting bullets. I have been hurt many times casting bullets.

One cannot load a ML without some part of your body near or over the muzzle. Very bad... Too dangerous to contemplate according to some.
!@*%&@ near everything is dangerous.
Yes, nitric is serious stuff.  But it can be handled without instant death and without a full haz-mat suit.
If you do rust bluing for example you may find that only a mix with nitric in it will give good color especially on alloy steels. Most of the store bought stuff is not good enough... So unless you want to paint metal parts (get your respirator) you need nitric acid.
How about hot tank bluing?
Cyanide process case hardening? Or charcoal process for that matter.
Wet sanding with a varnish is near to huffing fumes from spray paint.
Forging steel parts.
Anyone reading this is far more likely to get killed or injured by someone driving drunk than by making a solution with nitric acid.

Sorry for the rant but I get a little tired of constant warnings and hand wringing over stuff that is little more dangerous that putting Drano in a drain with reasonable precautions.
A great many things we do and have contact with every day will kill you dead with a slip or trip or a little mishandling.

If you really want a scare look up Dioxin, then look at how its increasing in the environment.
Oh yes, Soccer can cause brain damage....

Dan
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 02:02:18 AM »
Dan - your last post is maybe just a little hypocritical?
To quote you from the post on Antiquing Finish Secrets
Quote
There are some things that are largely unavoidable. Hot steel from the forge. The stuff that comes off dilute nitric acid when iron is added is pretty ugly stuff to see and its deadly. Just the fumes are bad without adding the iron. But its tough to make traditional AF without doing this.
I think I can probably rust a piece of steel without mixing acid and chlorine. Thus its not a necessary so why do it? The problem is the idiot factor when you tell people to do stuff you have to assume they will screw it ups and poison themselves.

Well the gas that comes of nitric acid as you noted is dangerous and is avoidable by buying the prepared mixes or using Ferric Nitrate crystals which is what mixing iron with nitric acid is (just ask a chemist)...I guess we all pick our own dangers, so each to his own and just make sure to take the necessary precautions to limit the danger (s), but life is ful o the
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 02:25:27 AM »
Here is where I purchased my Ferric Nitrate. I mixed it 50-50 BY VOLUME. So five tablespoons of water and five of crystals. You should still do a test on the stock wood sample.

No fumes and not really very acidic.

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/product1.aspx?SID=10&Product_ID=6384

Gary
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 02:27:33 AM by flintriflesmith »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 02:57:14 AM »
Quote
Dennis try diluting your AF mixes with some fresh apple cider vinegar (sounds weird but the additional acid should help kick it to the red side, or swipe with hydrogen peroxide) or distilled water - Please experiment on scrap
Chuck,
Never tried vinegar in the AF but is try swiping hydrogen peroxide on the vinegar/iron stain and it had no effect on it. I thought maybe it had not sit long enough so I tried it again a month later and still the same. Dark grayish/black and hydrogen peroxide again had no effect on it. Hate that I really like some of the vinegar stains I have seen others use.
Dennis
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voyageur1688

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 05:02:23 AM »
FLINTRIFLESMITH,
 Which of the  FN crystals would give the nice reddish brown color like the ones in the photos that are on this post?
 Thanks.
 Todd

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 06:04:13 AM »
Dan - your last post is maybe just a little hypocritical?
<snip>

Where did I say it was safe in any post? I didn't. Its not. But its stupid to get lathered up because it requires protective clothing. People SHOULD have protective clothing to handle gasoline but it would PO too large a segment of the electorate so they have not gotten that far...yet....
So far as commenting on people still killing themselves despite of warnings. Once working as a professional in the field I told a customer "do not use this powder in the cartridges for your rifle". Guess what he did? He did EXACTLY as I told him not to and blew a Sharps reproduction to FRAGMENTS he broke every major part in front of the hammer but the breechblock. This takes some doing since 30-06 level pressures cause no problem. He survived uninjured since he was shooting off the bench.
This and other witnessed stupidities that convince me that a segment of the population is simply too dumb to live. So they need to be protected and to protect them we all suffer.

I just get tired of hearing how dangerous everything is.
Every thing anyone does seems to be bad for them, their neighbors, some toad that only lives on 2 square yards in some remote spot and in order to prevent it from being endangered life as we know it must stop in a 50 mile radius or it promotes global warming, the current "lets worry and live in a mud hut to protect the world" craze. In the 1970s it was global COOLING, a new ice age we were supposed to worry about.
I was trying to point out that life is dangerous.
Danger is relative. You might damage or kill yourself with nitric acid, you could be incinerated putting fuel in your lawn mower, you could slip on the ice breaking a leg or your head.

I would a $#*! of a lot rather make nitric acid stain than uncover and destroy enemy anti-tank mines and yes I have done both. Its relative. Getting caught away from home and having the roads glaze over with ice is another thing I don't like much. But I driven on ice for hundreds of miles at a time and I am still here.
So if you never do anything more dangerous than drink a chocolate soda then handling a container of acid might be worrisome. Irrational fear (as opposed to respect) promotes accidents  I don't worry about it but I take precautions. I probably should have mentioned the ferric nitrate as an alternative but he wanted to do it the old way.
There is no warranty that when you are born that you will not have some accident or contract some ailment that kills you before the average life span of your generation. Life is not fair or safe.

I guess I am just fed up with big brother looking over my shoulder so as to make me "safe".
One result of this loathsome intrusion into my life is that I cannot now buy BP within 90 miles of my house or easily buy even potassium nitrate for heat treating or coloring parts I don't even know where to look now, used to buy it at the Drug Store. A few years ago I could buy either within a 5-10 minute walk of my house, funny I don't feel a !@*%&@ bit safer now than then. If anything I am less safe.

A passage from a well known document from our past:

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance."

Now think IRS, BATF, OSHA, EPA, etc, etc. The primary goal of these is to make sure they have work to do. So the taxes will never be properly paid, blackpowder, firearms etc must be clamped down on, warehouses must change the height of safety chains every few months (depending on the inspector) and the planet/water/air will NEVER be clean enough.

This is part of why I get a testy about worry about things that really are only dangerous when handled carelessly.
If I have offended anyone I apologise, it is not my intent.
My wife wants ice cream. Yes, its dangerous too just check with the AMA or the Heart Assoc. But relatively its pretty safe.
Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2008, 06:07:07 AM »
Its all the same ferric nitrate is ferric nitrate.
Its the concentration of iron that gives the color.
Acidic stains are not needed.
Mix, test and adjust. Color will vary with the wood.
Dan
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2008, 06:16:31 AM »
FLINTRIFLESMITH,
 Which of the  FN crystals would give the nice reddish brown color like the ones in the photos that are on this post?
 Thanks.
 Todd


http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Guns%20Since%201990/JA_rifle2.htm

Todd,
The rifle on this web page was stained with the Ferric Nitrate purchased from the link I posted above. Chemicals are chemicals and it doesn't matter where or what brand you buy. I just think my source is very reasonable in price and I had a very good experience dealing with them.

I do believe the color can vary from wood to wood. Ths rifle is a piece of Wayne Dunlap's red maple. The customer wanted a moderate amount of curl because he felt that was more historically correct than some of the super fine wood we see used today.

Gary
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voyageur1688

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2008, 03:08:52 AM »
DPHARISS,
 Yes I did say I wanted to do it the old way and still plan to do it that way with 1 or 2 minor exceptions.  No dremmel-I'll use chisels, gouges,shave, rasps, files etc. No sandpaper--scrapers instead, No Electric drill,- I have original style drills (T  handles with a bits in them) I am not going to do anything modern on this one other than the use of modern taps for threading screw holes. I am used to doing things in both the old way as well as the new ways. I heat and cook with wood, use oil lamps for lighting and have no electricity. The computer I am using is my sisters and I use it when I stop in to check on her(shes in a wheelchair). So before anybody gets critical of any of the others lets stop and take a look at what I had asked for. The Ferric Nitrate crystals will be used on my next project which I will be starting on when this one is done. This is my choice but others can also benefit from the modern alternatives to my questions.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2008, 04:18:45 AM »
DPHARISS,
 Yes I did say I wanted to do it the old way and still plan to do it that way with 1 or 2 minor exceptions.  No dremmel-I'll use chisels, gouges,shave, rasps, files etc. No sandpaper--scrapers instead, No Electric drill,- I have original style drills (T  handles with a bits in them) I am not going to do anything modern on this one other than the use of modern taps for threading screw holes. I am used to doing things in both the old way as well as the new ways. I heat and cook with wood, use oil lamps for lighting and have no electricity. The computer I am using is my sisters and I use it when I stop in to check on her(shes in a wheelchair). So before anybody gets critical of any of the others lets stop and take a look at what I had asked for. The Ferric Nitrate crystals will be used on my next project which I will be starting on when this one is done. This is my choice but others can also benefit from the modern alternatives to my questions.

Trying to do ALL of it the old way would be really tough. Even just the stock work. It almost requires being apprenticed to Williamsburg or such just to learn a version of how it was done.
Ferric nitrate is a good option. I just happen to have s significant supply of acid so I make it as I need it.
You can make your own boiled linseed oil for finish pretty easily and its great stuff. Top coats mixed 50/50 or so with Grumbacher's Oil Painters Medium III makes a pretty good soft varnish that is more like the old stuff than the store bought stuff I am aware of.
There are several posts from the old site on this subject.
You can find information making scrapers and a scratch stock for forming the forend if you look. I can give details on a scratch stock, which I find pretty useful, if its not in the archives.
You can make excellent straight and skew chisels from tool steel and other oddities that you find you might need. I have two mini-chisels, one a gouge, I filled from needle files years ago.
The old timers used abrasives on leather if I am properly informed. A crude sand paper.
You can use natural fiber brushes and rottenstone to smooth hard to reach areas of carving. Don't know how old the technique is.
I very seldom use a Dremel, or much electricity on wood. But I use a lot of electricity on metal parts. But most polish is by hand.

Dan
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 04:36:05 AM by Dphariss »
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Bioprof

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Re: Aqua fortis
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2008, 10:09:35 PM »
Has anyone seen the MSDS for water?  It's downright scarey.  If you drink too much of it, you can die of water intoxication.   If you fall in a large body of it, you can drown.   Water is lethal if used improperly.   Those MSDS are ridiculous, they go way overboard.