power difference between swiss 3f an goex 3f

[Daryl]

I agree with everything other than what Sam thinks happens.  He obtained increased speeds when using his wasp nest material - obviously due to finally obtaining a seal.  When he challenged one of the NAPR regulars to trying his wasp nest 'gasget' material, the velcoties remained the same. Sam wrote that up as having no explanation as he'd always received an increase in his guns. It never occured to him that the NAPR fellow was getting a seal with his normal load. Seems 'old Sam was too limp wristed (or lazy) to try the same concoction in his own rifles.

 When I wind the anvil down on my mic. the denim material I use, it compresses 3 or 4 thou. Some of the thinner cloths will compress more, that's for sure.  I use the mic for testing various batches of 'pound' weight denim and so far it hasn't let me down. It gives me consistant parameters to search for.  I used to use the thin tip's of calipers for measuring, but found too much spring in most of the calipers tested - only 3 sets, but each showed too much of this spring in the tines.  I didn't realize what was happening until I tested some drill rod with the same calipers, getting similar same spring at the tips.  The harder you squeeze, the more spring you get.  With the drill rod, the tips aren't getting closer, but the dials all say they are.

[Mad Monk]

When SAm Fadala was writing the articles for the Buckskin Report I was shooting with C.P. Wood and some of his friends down in West Virginia.  Since both Sam and Woody wrote for Baird I knew something of what was going on.

I wish that I had known then what I know now regarding lot to lot differences in the powders being used.  Everytime Woody or Sam would write a shooting article and give velocities they would be buried with letters where the writers got different velocities.  Nobody really looked at lot to lot differences in the powders and how that worked out during shooting.  Everybody seemed to have the idea that one can of powder was no different than another.

Lyman had much the same problem after they published their 1974 Black Powder Handbook.  A lot of shooters could not duplicate their velocity results.

You mentioned NAPR.  I still have one of their big pewter belt buckles.

[sonny]

in my 54 cal getz barrel,it isvery hard to palm pound the bullet into the rifle.I have tried 530 rb an 20 thou oxyoke wonder patch an had to really wack that sucker hard to get past the crown.Must have deformed the perfect ball doing that as i never get accuracy like i want with all extra work seating ball.With a 535 rb an 20 thou wonderpatch you would need a mallet to start the ball down.....nobody seem's to mention ballstarters with there guns......am i the only one who needs a ballstarter to get accuracy???I hate a ball starter an the work to load the ball past the crown.If i use 18 thous pellowtick with bear grease,my gun with 70 grns swiss #3 blows the patch with holes..........How are you guys loading 535 an not blowing patches with one hole accuracy???.......sonny

[Daryl]

It's all in the crown - sharp crowns as delivered on rifles will cut patches and resist allowing the ball to seat.  Get some 320 Emery, or wet or dry paper, use your thumb, rotating round and round, turn the barrel, keep doing this until the crown is nicely radiused.
  I load a .400" ball in a .398" bore with .0215" denim patch and spit or LHV lube- no problem.  The short stud on the starter's knob is placed on top of the ball, and one easy whack with the palm puts it down into the muzzle 1/4" to 3/8".  The long shaft is then put on the ball and one easy whack with the palm and the ball is down 6" or so. The 3/8" rod puts it the rest of the way down.

 Sonny, like you, if I try to skimp on patch thickness with .395" balls, ie: .018", they'll blow - burn spots to shreds if the temp is above about 60F. The above noted barrel will allow a patch as thin as .015" with a .400" ball but the accuracy suffers.

 In the .45 barrel, I use a .445" ball and the .0215" denim patch(10 pound denim).  I can use a slightly thinner .019" to .020"(10 pound different mfg) but accuracy isn't as good and in hot weather, the patches will blow.  With a ball .010" smaller than bore, I can use the same .0215' denim patch, but accuracy isn't as good as the larger ball provides.  Loading is easy. Starting involves one light whack with the palm on the starter's knob over the ball and patch, then a punch down using the long shaft.

 A couple weeks ago, one of the guys took a short movie of me loading.  We'd already shot finished the trail so we'd all shot around 50 to 55 shots, no one had to wipe the bore at any time.  If I can get Taylor to send it to me, I'll post it under a new thread.  It shows just how easy it is to load a tight combination if the muzzle is shaped to allow this.  That day, the guys were all using .005" under balls and .020" to .025" denim patches - LHV or windshield-washer fluid and oil for lube.  Taylor's Jaeger uses a .535" ball and a .025" denim patch. Loading is easy. Taylor doesn't use a short stud on the starter's knob, but holds the shaft in his palm and brings the end of the knob down on top of the ball with a blow to seat the ball flush with the muzzle, then the shaft punches the patched ball down into the bore 5 or 6 inches with another blow of the palm. Punch - punch then down it goes with the rod. - that fast. There is no work involved - it's easy and fast.  In punching the ball down into the muzzle, the sprue on top of the ball is flattened slightly. Enough force is used to seat the ball flush with one blow.  If less force is used, multiple blows might be necessary - this will deform the ball - one punch does it without deforming the ball.  We load all our rifles this way - even my wife with her .45. She is using a .440" ball in a .450" bore, with .020" denim patch and LHV but with only 50gr. 3F. This load shoots just fine in her short 32" barrel and is easy loading for her.  Our starters have a section of Moose antler taken form just above the base as the knob - it is heavy and dense helping with starting. Another starter of mine has a section of Hockory Axe handle and it works just about as well.  Note the shrot stud on the starter knob's end. This is a .30 M1 carbine case cupped on the end with a drill, then glued into one end of the horn.  The side of the horn has a hole that fits over the rod's end when seating the ball down onto the power, the last inch or so.  At no time is the starter used as a hammer or mallet - no hammering or pounding with a mallet is needed - even when Taylor tried a .508" ball in his .50 'Ginny' with a .020" denim patch.  The crown's radius allowed that tight combination to swage into the bore. It was quite snug so he choked up on the rod and put it down in 6 to 10" stages.

 The crown's shape and smoothness is of utmost importance. If there is a sharp angle where the angle of the crown meets the bore and groove depth, that sharp edge will resist swaging the tight combination into the bore.  The thumb and emery will smooth this sharp edge allowing the ball and patch to swage together into the bore.

[Jerry V Lape]

In addition to the radius of the crown, you may have some lubrication issue which is making the load tougher to get down.  Have you tried the same load with the patch sloppy w/ saliva to see if it loads easier?  Swaging a few thousandths of lead to fit the patch and bore usually isn't all that difficult.  My Getz barrel in .54 didn't start shooting well until I went to .535 ball and .018 -.020 patch which loads pretty smoothly using short starter.  (My lube is SPG rubbed into the outside of the patch material). 

[Daryl]

The SPG softened a bit with a bit of olive oil will be tried by me this coming spring.  Always open to new suggestions, thanks, Jerry.

 24th - got some made up now - soft & creamy at 65F - very slippery - mnight work. - hurry up Spring! - HA! - winter seems to have most of us in it's grip now. White Christmas, coast to coast!

[sonny]

when hunting won't the spg lube be a problem loading....sonny

[Daryl]

Loading with SPG is quite easy in mild weather, but in freezing temps, something 'softer' is needed.  The mix I made up of SPG and Olive oil will work just fine in the summer, no wiping needed, as would straight SPG.  I prefer a softer lube, is all.  Note that when switching lubes, you have to check the sights.  In my rifle, changing from 55gr. 2F and spit patch, to LHV as a lube required a switch to 3f and a 65gr. charge to obtain the same accuracy. Luckily, the point of impact was also the same.  Switching to Hoppe's #9 Plus caused a 2" rise and 1/2" right shift in the point of impact.  What this means is you can't change lubes willy/nilly and expect to keep hitting small targets at 50 yards or further.  Always check your sights when making ANY change to your load.

[Jerry V Lape]

I loaded for elk hunt in weather around 20 degrees and the SPG rubbed into one side of the denim patching loaded easily.  However, I recognize that Daryl has considerably colder temps so I will keep in mind the olive oil mix if I have to go into colder temperatures. 

[flintlock]

I know this is an old post, but this might help.

I just finished chronographing some hunting loads today using Goex and Swiss powder, both 3Fg. I shoot a .50 caliber with .495 balls for target, .490 for hunting (easier to load). I use pillow ticking for patch material. I shot both diameter balls and found no significant difference in velocity.

My chronograph was at 5 yards. Velocities below are back-calculated to 0 yards to give actual muzzle velocity.

A year ago 110 grains of Goex 3Fg gave me about 2050 fps muzzle velocity. Today's can gave only 2000 fps. I finished the can and opened another. 110 grains from that can only gave 1930 fps!

When I bought some Swiss yesterday I was told to use 30% less, so I trimmed the 110 grains to 80 and incremented from there. I got the following:

80       1931 fps
90       2053 fps
100     2141 fps

I didn't try 110 grains. Swiss velocities were more consistent too. Standard deviation for the Swiss was 1/3 that of the Goex. Chronographs don't lie. I'm told Swiss is cleaner too.

Last year I shot a bear with the 110 grains of Goex. This May I'll be shooting 90 grains of Swiss. 

[smylee grouch]

The fella selling powder at the WNS told me that the swiss powder was compressed, that is the powder granuals are compressed so you actualy get more powder in your volume measure.  My 58 flinter was zipping along at 1900 fps with 110 swiss-2f, and just over 1400 with the same volume GOEX.  I had to cut back to about 95 gr. swiss to get in that 1400 range.    Gary

[Dphariss]

hummm.........think 70 grains of swiss 3f is too hot for 54 cal???

I shoot 90 in mine. 70-75 in 50. VS 100 and 90 respectively for goex.
Swiss is more consistent too.

Dan

[Daryl]

The fella selling powder at the WNS told me that the swiss powder was compressed, that is the powder granuals are compressed so you actualy get more powder in your volume measure.  My 58 flinter was zipping along at 1900 fps with 110 swiss-2f, and just over 1400 with the same volume GOEX.  I had to cut back to about 95 gr. swiss to get in that 1400 range.    Gary

Swiss is more highly refined - uses better components and is milled longer. They do not take normal, example GOEX and further compress it.  Swiss is supposed to closely match C&H #6 for velocity and this is why it regulates in a wide variety of best quality English doubles using the 'regulation' loads.  Until it was available, some ctgs. wouldn't hold enough GOEX to regulate as it took up to 20% more GOEX to match Swiss speeds and regulation.