Author Topic: Utility vs Cost in Building  (Read 9492 times)

northmn

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Utility vs Cost in Building
« on: December 19, 2008, 01:16:52 PM »
I was thinking about the parts I have so far accumulated for a new build and got to thinking about utility vs value.  I built a gun out of a birch stock I cut myself and am not really unhappy with the results as it has an interesting figure.  I have a sister stock blank for it out of the same tree opposite side.  While thinking about things I ordered a plain walnut blank as I felt sometime I may want to sell off a few guns and felt walnut would make a nicer looking gun for my own personal aesthetics.  I really do not make guns to sell so much as for my own use.  I make them fit me and make small modifications for comfort such  as maybe a wider buttplate for a big bore.  Rarely copy anything other than to call it influenced by a maker or type.  Some buy all the best and I understand why, especially for selling.  I like to make a "nice" weapon.  My primary area of little compromise is in function.  The lock better be a good sparker and the barrel hit where I point it.  I know how to tune locks and they do work when I am done.  Went through an era when a lot of folks made a lot of poor locks.  Those that complain about L&R should have tried those that needed a radioactive face on the frizzen to spark. (that is an actual example) .  Green Mountain makes adequate barrels and I am using one for my next project but it is a straight barrel and shorter.  I found, shooting offhand and now hunting that the ignition system is very very important.  If you buy set triggers, get good ones. Just as a point of discussion I wonder where some draw lines as to utility vs fancy or what do they value.

DP

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 07:52:59 PM »
I never compromise on any component for a muzzle loading gun...wood, barrel, hardware, lock etc.  I buy the best I can find.  I pour too much of myself into my work in terms of research, concentration and time to compromise on anything.  Whether I sell it or not makes no difference...I make them all for ME.

"The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 08:11:05 PM »
Good topic. As a scientist I like to break topics down  and so right away I see 2 areas for discussion.  One is "plain versus fancy" and the other is perhaps "sticking to specific historical schools of building versus working in your own style".

Plain versus fancy:  This could also involve "frugal versus expensive" but need not.  It's possible to build an expensive gun (custom barrel, best lock, best components all around, expensive wood) that is simply styled or even be in the "poor boy" or "schimmel" mode.  For example a plain peiece of English walnut would not be fancy, but could cost more than a super piece of curly maple.  A plain, expensive gun could be the result.  It is also possible to build a fancy gun without using all the most expensive components.  An example might be Jim Kibler's use of plain maple blanks to build rifles with elegant design and carving.  Or one could use a straight barrel, plain wood, inexpensive lock, etc but have elegant carving and engraving.  It wouldn't cost more to build; just more effort.

Ok, enought theorizing.  How do I decide whether to build fancy or plain?  I generally get excited by an original and that is where my building starts.  Sometimes I want to expand my skill set and challenge myself by choosing a design that requires me to improve my carving or engraving skills, or perhaps something requiring more inletting skills, like a Bucks County entry thimble witha  big "skirt" or a buttplate with a long and complicated front extension that must be inletted "straight down".  Other times, a simple early multi-purpose musket without a buttplate might capture my imagination.  All that's needed is a big lock, a long barrel and a plain piece of wood, and the rest of the parts can be made from sheet metal.

When it comes to working in styles of originals or making guns of my own design, I confess, I don't have my own design.  My mind doesn't work that way.  Some do have that creativity and I admire it.  It's probably accurate to say I don't even try very hard to be creative, but I could if I had the desire.  I do like to make guns that folks recognize as being in such and such a style.  I guess the historical aspect is what drew me into the craft and sport and I still work in that vein.

If I was in a situation where I just needed a gun, and had to work with whatever parts and wood I had available, I'd still probably find a way to make something that folks would recognize as belonging to a particular time and place.

On my "to build" or "in progress" list:
1) In progress, RCA #19, the early walnut stocked "volute" rifle.  Modest carving, but requires more engraving than I am comfortable doing.
2) Hudson Valley fowler, 54" barrel, TRS Dutch lock castings will be a challenge as will Dutchy carving designs and the architecture.  This will have the two-toned stock with the raised carving lighter in tone.
3) Hickory stocked Bucks County rifle, plain and sleek.  Big challenge here is killer hard wood and relying soleley on architecture, no decoration.
4) A near copy of an original rifle probably made quickly and plainly for the Revolutionary War.  The buttstock has a big portion that is spliced on, probably due to a major check or break and the one I build will probably have that too.
5) Carolina gun painted with designs like Jack Brooks did.  Probably stocked in beech.
6) Short barreled plain early Pennsylvania rifle patterned after one likely made by Berlin.  It's in RCA, volume 2 but I forget the #.
7) I need to make a Reading gun and have not yet decided on the design.
8. Big plain early Lehigh rifle based on one Shumway illustrated in Muzzle Blasts in the 1980's.  Sideplate and guard resemble Oerter's work but the underside of the buttstock is one smooth curve.
9) Plain musket dating to mid-1700's.
10) Early Dutch trade gun that could have been made 1680-1720.

That's my top 10 at the moment.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 08:26:46 PM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont

keweenaw

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 08:59:47 PM »
There is no question of compromising on function.  Doing that is just plain stupid.  As for the plain versus fancy.  Given that one would use the same basic furniture on either gun and the same lock the only difference is in the barrel and the stock blank.  One might save say $60 in buying a generic, straight barrel over a good swamped one and another $160 in a plain maple blank over a very nice curly one.  Let's round up and say one could save $250 in stuff.  From one of the good makers let's say an average rifle cost is about $3500 so the  savings are all of 7%.  In a resale that plain stock and straight barrel is going to cost the seller about $1500 dollars so the savings of $250 really costs someone about $1250. 

Even when I'm building for myself, with no intention of ever selling a piece, my time is far to valuable to me to fool with components other than the best available and appropriate for the project I'm working on as the cost of the components and saving on lesser quality is a very small part of the total project costs if one counts the labor as one should.

Tom

George F.

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 09:01:29 PM »
My feelings are echoed by Taylor's...Geo.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 09:36:12 PM »
Personally I agree with Taylor.  I pay whatever it takes to make the best. [BUT] I think it depends a lot on why or for what you are making the gun.  I make guns for money and for art. If a person is making a gun for hunting it need only be comfortable to carry , shoot straight and shouldn't be so fancy that one is afraid to lay it in a pile of brush or drop in the dirt.
  A deep dark secret is that I use a great plains 54 cal lyman for most shoots and some hunting. I also believe that if you are going to put $10,000 worth of labor and parts into a gun you better be able to sell it for more than $25,000.  Otherwise this will be a form of insanity.
 Only a fool or an ego maniac makes fun of somebody else's gun. The point is that you have one that you enjoy. This is a great hobby and or profession. It will keep you from being driven to bad habits from boredom. It is a never ending learning cycle. You must realize that you cannot please everybody so forget it and do it for yourself. If you love what you do your work will earn you enough real friends and the others don't count.  The answer to the question is -- it depends on how much money you have and who you are married to.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Daryl

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 10:25:18 PM »
If anyone wants to understand exactly what Jerry means - visit his web site and look at his amazing works of art.  You will be humbled.

Offline David Rase

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 10:38:03 PM »
I never compromise on any component for a muzzle loading gun...wood, barrel, hardware, lock etc.  I buy the best I can find.  I pour too much of myself into my work in terms of research, concentration and time to compromise on anything.  Whether I sell it or not makes no difference...I make them all for ME.

"The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."
Well said Taylor, my feelings exactly. 
DMR

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 11:43:18 PM »
I build because I like to build  historically accurate (representative) flintlocks for my hunting use .  My sentiments are similar to Taylor's but the results aren't nearly as well done - yet.  Compromise on cost of parts would erode my attitude toward doing my best  and I would quit.  So I buy best parts, stretch my skills to maximum and shoot what comes out of it for my pleasure only.   If I only wanted a functional piece (and I am a hunter, not competitor) Lyman rifles or even inlines would suffice. 

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 12:56:14 AM »
Sounds to me that pride in workmanship is the common thread that us builders share whether we are are pros like Jerry or a hobby builder like myself. When you put so much of yourself into a rifle build compromising on parts just doesn't make sense.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008, 03:20:24 AM »
The cost of the components pales in comparison to the value of your time, once you hit $10.00 an hour or more.

My humble suggestion is that you decide the type of gun that you want, obtain components that are the best you can afford to build that gun, and have at it.

I have built two rifles, both with parallel sided barrels, and was pleased with the outcome.  I would have been more satisified with tapered and flared (aka swamped) barrels, as the rifles would have balanced better.

I have two more that I am getting ready to start and I opted for parallel barrels on these, too, because of pretty good deals on a couple precarved stocks.  Both are Rice radius grooved barrels, so they are good quality.  Just not tapered and flared.

I'm using Chambers locks.  They are dependably good.

My first rifle was stocked in very hard red maple.  The second in much softer maple of some variety.  As between hard and fancy maple, go for hard.

Good luck, and post pictures.

Larry Luck
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 03:21:12 AM by L. Luck »

Sam Everly

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008, 04:58:54 AM »
My problem is when i go to the CLA show or to Norris Tenn.and see something i like . I end up getting all the stuff to build it, then put it back for later. Well now i have enough stuff to build 21 rifles . One good thing about that is the price of parts never has went down. I only hope i have enough time to finish them .I see it as a good investment , and seem to have as much fun buying the parts as building one ! But i did take a close, hard look, at my stash ,and now i grit my teeth and say NO when i want a new project . Besides i don't have any place to put any more parts, and that much wood in one closet would be a nightmare in a house fire .       
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 05:01:14 AM by Sam Everly »

Offline b bogart

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2008, 06:23:10 AM »
Sam
pleeeeez don't say the "F" word!
Bruce

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008, 10:13:38 AM »
I agree entirely with all of the above.  For me , the parts are of the most minor importance.  BECAUSE, of what people want from me. I have vastly much more in vested in labor than components. If I use a plain stock, it's because it looks better for what I'm doing.

BUT, if I wanted to build the best performer for the minimum in terms of expense, I'd go with a Siler lock and a straight Grn. Mtn. barrel. Silers, done by a good maker , and Grn Mtn. barrels, which have won more national championships than any other ( because they're common and good).

P.S. Take a Grn Mtn. barrel. Buy a breech plug. Install it properly, shape it  with a taper, finish the outside of the barrel, and you have, from a professional standpoint, more invested than you would have than if you bought a Getz barrel in the first place.

It's a matter of time and money and what you're doing.

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008, 03:46:13 PM »
     I certainly agree with what Taylor, Jerry & Bill said about using quality components.  If you do so you will never have to second guess yourself.  I build a number of guns, 12-15 per year.  The vast majority are for guys that want a gun that is a cut above what they can buy off the shelf.  The majority of these guys have little idea of all the various schools, what is P.C. etc.  They want a gun that will work & shoot well and gives good service over a long period.  They do not want to have to drag or send it back to the shop.   I buy Jim chambers locks by the dozen.  They are good and he stands behind them.  There are a number of good barrel makers out there that can supply really great standard, or one off barrels.  Davis and a few custom makers can supply great D.S. triggers, if that is what you are using.  We have seen time and again that a plain piece of wood can be made into a stunning piece of craftsmanship/art.   You don't want to end up with "nice piece of wood" being the most heard comment about your gun.   Most of us are in this field because we have a deep abiding love of guns of this period.  We enjoy the study and the craftmanship involved.   As Jerry said it also keeps from other more self-destructive failings.   So, never compromise quality for looks or you may end up in a very unhappy union.   
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2008, 06:27:49 PM »
I never compromise on any component for a muzzle loading gun...wood, barrel, hardware, lock etc.  I buy the best I can find.  I pour too much of myself into my work in terms of research, concentration and time to compromise on anything.  Whether I sell it or not makes no difference...I make them all for ME.

"The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."

I quit making rifles with low grade wood back some time ago. To me its a waste of energy.
For this reason I almost always use curly maple or a decent grade of walnut.
The fancy wood will always be worth a premium and plain wood always is worth less. The amount of work is the same. I think a little research will show that even some "poor boy/barn gun" grade rifles were stocked in figured maple. So stocking a barn gun in plain wood is not necessary to be HC.
There was a rifle in a 1960s Muzzle Blasts that qualifies as a "barn gun" that had really tight curly maple for a stock.
I suspect that what was on hand was what was used.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2008, 07:42:41 PM »
One also gets into the issue of "make or buy".  As I stated the birch stock likely would get scoffed at by some of the better makers, BUT, it was cut on my own place, split out by hand and worked down a lot by hand.  I do not have any maple trees that would qualify for gunstocks.  You can draw a line somewhere about Brainerd or St. Cloud South to get good hardwoods, I live a ways North of that area and truly enjoyed using a "homegrown" stock. Investment cast hardware at $20-35 a pop for a buttplate or triggerguard, may also look better than what some of us can do, but at times the cost is more of a incentive to make instead of buy.  Experimentation may also be an incentive to go a little less spendy.  I cannot argue with the logic of saving up to buy the best, especially for resale, but it can be prohibitive.  Using plain parts will still yield a functional rifle that fits personal desires better than off the shelf manufactured guns, unless the off the shelf guns match what one in-visions.  I could shoot a CVA Mountain rifle about as well as anything I could make, but never owned one as I felt I could improve on it with better locks and a nicer stock.

DP 

lew wetzel

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2008, 05:07:03 PM »
making your furniture compared to buying it can be the best and bring a higher dollar for your work.ian pratt makes most of all his buttplates and triggerquards and anything else he can make and they are way nicer than any shelf bought parts.being fruegle is not a bad thing at times.if your customer wants high end parts then use them.if you are building for yourself your own tastes will play the direction you go.and if you have the talent for manufacturing your own furniture and the public knows this they will come to you because hand made has a romantic ring to it....

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2008, 06:41:59 PM »
One also gets into the issue of "make or buy".  As I stated the birch stock likely would get scoffed at by some of the better makers, BUT, it was cut on my own place, split out by hand and worked down a lot by hand.  I do not have any maple trees that would qualify for gunstocks.  You can draw a line somewhere about Brainerd or St. Cloud South to get good hardwoods, I live a ways North of that area and truly enjoyed using a "homegrown" stock. Investment cast hardware at $20-35 a pop for a buttplate or triggerguard, may also look better than what some of us can do, but at times the cost is more of a incentive to make instead of buy.  Experimentation may also be an incentive to go a little less spendy.  I cannot argue with the logic of saving up to buy the best, especially for resale, but it can be prohibitive.  Using plain parts will still yield a functional rifle that fits personal desires better than off the shelf manufactured guns, unless the off the shelf guns match what one in-visions.  I could shoot a CVA Mountain rifle about as well as anything I could make, but never owned one as I felt I could improve on it with better locks and a nicer stock.

DP 

I understand using home cut wood.
But there is this scenario as well.
You build good salable stuff than will bring a good return then buy more parts and tools with the proceeds. Make one of what you want and another to sell. Repeat.
Good stuff always appreciates, store bought usually does not.
This defrays the "prohibitive" costs.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2008, 09:20:30 PM »
Selling requires a bit of marketing. When I used to sell I attended rendezvous and developed a name enough so that I would get approached. Some would see the guns and haggle out a purchase.  There are factors such as region that also assist. At this time I choose to build for myself.  The last couple of guns I built a few years ago I am not happy with as they definitely show my burnout.  One  broke through the wrist anyway.  My last shows my effort to relearn my learning curve after a layoff (which was another good reason to go cheap).  Demands on my time, especially in the short summer we have in MN limits my choices as to what I do for recreation.  Half the people that fish in the midwest come to Nortern MN.  I started to think the best way for me to go fishing was to move away and then vacation for a week or two like others.  For a while I was shooting 3-D archery with my kids and so forth.  Saying all this, its pleasant to sit back and build for myself, what I like and not worry about its resale. Its still enjoyable to shoot a nice gun.  Part of that is fit and a big part is looks.  I built a Southern rifle that could have used a prettier stock.  It looks OK plain, but would have looked nicer dressed up a little with prettier wood.

DP

hyltoto

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Re: Utility vs Cost in Building
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2008, 09:28:52 PM »
Buy the best lock, trigger and barrel you can afford. Maintained properly these components can be recycled as you progress.

The gun I'm building now is based upon improvise, adapt and overcome. I had to dream up some work arounds, just like the west side of the Blue Ridge, but it has the best components in the fire control system I could find.

Birch would make a nice club after the first shot, and is stronger than walnut. I broke a walnut stock over a bucks head once.

If you go to jouster.com someone can probably give you the recipe for the stain the Springfield arsenal developed for M1 and M14 stocks.