Getting sighted in at 100 yards

[FRJ]

I've been slowly working on a 45cal flintlock that I bought several months ago. Shooting 70 gr of 3F it hits dead center at 30 yards and groups 3 shots into one ragged hole. Move out to 60 yards and its 6" high and centered. Go to 110 yards and I cant hit the paper!!!!! I've shot holding dead on and 6" high and 6" low and cant hit the paper. I'm using standard copier paper approx 8" X 11" with a 2" red dot in the middle. Although I cant see as well as I did 50 years ago I can still keep them into 2" with my other rifles. Anybody have any ideas what I'm doing wrong? FRJ

[T*O*F]

Put your target on a dirt bank so you can see where it's hitting

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...or open up a cardboad box and attach your target to that.  You'll soon see where the bullets are going.

[smylee grouch]

If your 100 yd. target is on the same plane as the others, you might be holding the gun different on the sand bags, if that is what you are using. The rifle will recoil off the bags different if you change the angle of the shot. Some food for thought anyway.    Smylee

[FRJ]

Its only a 40 yard difference. I am shooting at a box that has the target attached to it. Holding 6" low gives me an impact area of over 12" and holding 6" high gives me the same thing. I've shot literally hundreds of guns over the 50 plus years I've been shooting actually more like 60 years and never encountered this problem. FRJ

[Daryl]

I'd guess that zero'd at 30 yards, will be ON to 1/2" low at 50yards with that load, given the same hold and sight picture as at 30 yards.

 My own .45, GM barrel, with a greased patch will shoot into a single small hole at 25 yards and 1/2" high at 50 yards with 75gr. 3F or 85gr. 2F GOEX. I did not target it at 100, so cannot comment on it's trajectory, but surmise it will be not more than 2 1/2" low at 100yards, due to the 2,100+fps speed it is producing.

With only 65gr. 3F and a water based patch, it is zero'd at 25 and zero'd at 50.

The only way I can think the gun is shooting dead on at 30 and 6" high at 50, is you are showing front sight at 50 yards shooting. I think you need a slightly larger aiming point for 50 yards. My eyes are poor as well but I can nicely see a 4" round black bull. Holding 6 o'clock produces groups centered 1/2" low of the bull- PERFECT. This shows they are shooting right on the sights at that range.

Now, another posiblitly. If you are holding 6 o'clock - ie: about 1/2" below the bullseye and the balls are striking dead centre, ie: 1 1/2" to 2"  high at 30yards, it is quite possible they are quite a bit higher at 50 yards. Thus, they might be well over your target at 100yards.

My computer generated program shows a zero at 50yards shows .05" (5/100ths of an inch high) at 30yards.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""6.0" high at 50 yards, you are 9" high at 100. Too, it shows you are also 3.66" high at 30yards.

[trentOH]

I once had a Spanish-made flintlock anti-gravity rifle. The further the range the higher the hits. I didn't shoot a lot then, but finally figured it out: the barrel was bent slightly upwards! That sounds just like the situation you describe.

[T*O*F]

If it's a new barrel, it could be that it still has sharp edges on the lands.  Sometimes it takes as much as 200 shots to smooth them out.  You can speed the process up by using valve grinding compound as a patch lube.  Shoot 10 shots, cleaning between each shot.  Alternatively, you can get a nylon .36 caliber cleaning brush.  Then separate a maroon Scotch Brite pad by peeling it in half.  Wrap it around the brush with the abrasive side out until it's a tight fit in the bore.  Lube with oil and take about 30 full strokes in the bore.  Either way, it should now be cleaned up enough to group.  Read what your patches are telling you.

[Dennis Glazener]

Go to 110 yards and I cant hit the paper!!!!! I've shot holding dead on and 6" high and 6" low and cant hit the paper. I'm using standard copier paper approx 8" X 11" with a 2" red dot in the middle. Although I cant see as well as I did 50 years ago I can still keep them into 2" with my other rifles. Anybody have any ideas what I'm doing wrong? FRJ

This is a WILD possibility but you might want to check into it. Is it possibly that you have a really slow twist in that barrel and the balls are not being stabilized?
I once had a centerfire 308 with slow twist that was so much on the edge of being stabilized that certain bullets would go everywhere. Or if I backed off on the load it would shoot all over the target. Try increasing the load and see if it shoots better.

I once owned a 45 with 1 in 72 twist and it shot well at short ranges with reduced loads but for 100 - 125 yards it needed to be stoked very hot, I won't even list how much 3F I was shooting to get it to group well at 100 yards.
Dennis

[bgf]

It sounds like maybe vertical runout (or the previously mentioned bend) in the barrel to me.  My .50 with 70g FF (or 65g FFF for that matter) shoots a touch high (if I remember correctly) at 25 yards and right on at 50 yards (been a while since sighting in, so could be off a little).  Dead on at 30 yard zero and 6 inches high at 60 yards sounds like a different kind of trajectory entirely!

Dennis, I think the slow twist idea might have been taken too far -- why we think 1:70 is "perfect" for round ball rifles now when most originals from the actual era of round ball shooting were 1:48 is beyond me.  Marketing, or co-marketing in collusion with powder manufacturers ?  100 yards takes a lot of powder to work well in my .50 cal. GM w/1:70 twist, so you may be on to something.

[BRLMKR]

Not to throw a wrench into the system, but, I was shooting my .50 at 50 yards (70grains 3F) and it hit 2 1/2" RIGHT at 3 o'clock on the bull, at 100 yards it hit 7 1/2" LEFT and about 4" high. My shooting partner said "Try 1 1/2F", so I did. It shot 1/2" left at 50 yards and about 5/8" left at 100 yards. I took my targets to a local Who's Who physicist (who could not explain it) - I thought maybe RPM might have something to do with it, but who knows? Anyhow, I'm shooting 1 1/2F now and can't be happier! You might give it a try. (My 1 1/2F is Swiss). Terry

[Standing Bear]

I would first check for barrel run out AND/OR bend.
TC

[LehighBrad]

My 100 yard shots tightened up a little just from going from 75 to 80 grains of FFFG.



My last shot was a "flyer"....next trip...85 grains. Seems each 5 grain increase creates a tighter group at 100 yards.

[FRJ]

I go in for a knee replacement on monday so this will have to go on hold till I can go out again. The bent barrel idea intrigues me. Hope it aint so. Thanks all for the comments. Also is an 80 or 90 gr load common in a 45cal? FRJ

[Roger Fisher]

I go in for a knee replacement on monday so this will have to go on hold till I can go out again. The bent barrel idea intrigues me. Hope it aint so. Thanks all for the comments. Also is an 80 or 90 gr load common in a 45cal? FRJ

Good luck w/the knee.  My wifey had left one replaced ab 3 yrs ago and works well, no complaints about the knee.  (She complains about other med problems plenty....

I shoot 85 grains 3 f goex at 100 yds in my Getz .45 all the time. 

[Daryl]

Brad - an increase to a .020" (or thicker) patch might work better for you with that load - IF you are using a ball smaller than the bore size, ie: .450" or larger.

3 of them look really good. 4th could be an aiming error or a sign the bore is fouling and patch not doing it's job.  Does it usualy throw the 4th and 5th way out? It's difficult to draw worhtwhile conclusions from a single target. It leaves to many unanswered questions.

[Dennis Glazener]

I used to shoot more than that and that's all I am going to say!
Dennis

I go in for a knee replacement on monday so this will have to go on hold till I can go out again. The bent barrel idea intrigues me. Hope it aint so. Thanks all for the comments. Also is an 80 or 90 gr load common in a 45cal? FRJ

[LehighBrad]

Daryl....I tried .020 thick patches but was unable to start the ball past the muzzle using thumb pressure. I coned my muzzle so I could eliminate the use of a short starter. With my own cast .45 caliber roundballs I can push the patched ball into the muzzle using fairly heavy thumb pressure with a .015 patch. The ball and patch push down the bore with nice even resistance, but not to the point of having to tamp the ball down the bore. Perhaps I should get my hands on some .018 thick patch material and see how that goes.  I know .010 is way too thin for me. Is all this a matter of patch thickness or could adjusting powder charges and/or powder granulation (FFG vs. FFFG) in the barrel charge do anything in reguards to tighter groupings? A lot of variables involved I'm sure.

[Daryl]

I can't thumb start the ball into the muzzle with a .020" patche either.  However all by one of my guns demands a thicker than .020" patch as well.  I can use a .020" patch in my .398" bored /40, but with a .400" ball and get great accuracy, but in that bore with even the .398" ball, I use a .0215" patch to get that same accuracy.   With a .395" ball, I use a .023" patch.  That .40 cal rifle shoots into 1/2" at 50 yards with all of those loads, same as my GM barrled .45 does with a .445" ball and .0225" (10 ounce) patch.

It has never occured to me that I could get the accuracy I demand and still thumb start a patched ball. I think quite honestly, that to have a thumb starting load actually deliver anything I could call good accuracy, to be an impossibility.  

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Measuring patch thickness is very subjective.  I just had a fellow in the shop who is a very good shooter - a contender with his Hawken rifle.
He was telling me that the thicker his patch is, the tighter his groups are at 100 yds.  He described his groups at 1 1/2" from the bench.  He said he was using .018" cotton denim. I asked him to show me how he measures it, giving him one of the patches I use in my .50 cal. Voluptuous Virginia.  He placed the patch between the wider jaws of the Vernier's calipers, and got a reading of .026"  I measured the same patch in the same place, crushed the patch hard with my other hand, and got .018".  So, if that is parallel, his .018" material is more likely around .010" or .012".  He says his cleaning water is filthy black and soupy whereas mine is barely grey, and I'd drink it on a bet.

[Vomitus]

  I think you gotta put a real tight squeeze on the caliper jaws when measuring the material.When you load the patched ball, that's what you are doing,putting a squeeze on the patch in the muzzle.JMHO.

[WaterFowl]

Coned muzzle sets my alarm off.
My barrels all shoot better with patch material imprint on a pulled ball.
Damp-moist patch doesn't hurt either,
Hope the knee recovers fast!

[Vomitus]

I've had a coned muzzle. I still short started it with pre-cuts and I liked the performance. I mostly use .020 to get started,then,if needed I go thicker. This reminds me,dang,I gotta work on my forty!

[Daryl]

It's perfect for the plank shoot, LB.

[Vomitus]

 Daryls, hmm, never thot of that,kewl! Still fiddling with patch thickness. Had too thick of one at the Squirrel shoot. The 24 thou works great in the 28g but too hard to start in the 40. Going back to the .022,see if that works better.Sorry to jack your thread.
  LeighighBrad. Try some 2fg. Might be the ticket to tightening your group.Never know. A friend of ours shoots 45 to 55 grains of 3Fg in his 45 with great accuracy.As a matter of fact, he kicks butt with that load(s).