Author Topic: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?  (Read 5812 times)

Offline Rolf

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How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« on: September 19, 2012, 07:23:12 PM »
I took a break from the pistols I'm building to study my next project. A lefthanded Beck rifle stocked from a blank, I have a 44" swamped Rice barrel, c weight that's inlet in the blank by Fred Miller. RR hole is drilled. I have the Beck blue print sold by Knob Mountain.

I traced the pattern on to the stock blank and something is screwy with the wrist area. I think the wrist looks to skinny.

The barrel on the blue print is a straight octagon 0.950" wide. My swamped barrel is 1.08 at the breech. Can I adjust the wrist by parallel adjusting the top of the stock pattern 0.13"?

If I do so , how do I adjust the cheek piece pattern and how will this effect the cross sections on the blue print?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Curtis

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 08:20:15 PM »
Rolf,

If I understand what you are saying, In my opinion you may want to set your lock panel thickness first, which will likely be different than your blueprint due to the thicker barrel breach.  The minimum lock panel thickness will be from the side flat of your barrel, plus the thickness of you lock bolster, plus the thickness of the portion of the lock plate that will be inlet.  (this will be the thickness at the bolster, it will get wider at the rear of the lock panel due to your barrel swamp) You can sometimes grind/ file/ mill your bolster thinner, depending on your mainspring width etc.

After you establish the panels, you should have a better idea of what changes may be made to blend the wrist and subsequently the cheek.  My building experience is somewhat limited, but one thing I have learned is that when one thing changes, it can have a domino effect on everything else.

Just my opinions, I am sure you will get other thoughts and ideas on the subject.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 08:38:54 PM by Curtis »
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 03:40:55 AM »
I traced the pattern on to the stock blank and something is screwy with the wrist area. I think the wrist looks to skinny.

The barrel on the blue print is a straight octagon 0.950" wide. My swamped barrel is 1.08 at the breech. Can I adjust the wrist by parallel adjusting the top of the stock pattern 0.13"?

It makes me a little crazy whenever I see anyone measuring a rifle stock to two decimal points! I just can't relate that modern thinking to an 18th century rifle. I have no doubt that Beck could have worked to those tolerances  but I'm equally sure he had no need to. It is very unlikely that he owned any instrument capable of measuring closer than the nearest 1/16th of an inch.

In this particular case the "blueprint" is probably questionable because very few Beck rifles would have been made with a straight sided barrel! I think trashing/forgetting the exact measurements and trying to produce something with the look and feel of an old rifle will yield a better finished product.
Gary

"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Long John

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2012, 04:58:41 PM »
Rolf,

You can, and should, do anything you want!  Step back and draw in what looks good to you.  That's what the original probably makers did.  They didn't have drawings.  They probably had a board cut with the profile of a rifle stock that they laid down on the blank, traced around and then started sawing out the profile of the stock on their blank.  As the build progressed they used their judgement, derived from experience, to produce a rifle that suited either them or their client, depending on circumstance.

You have good instincts.  Let them be your guide.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline JCKelly

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 01:55:38 AM »
There are some decent top views of Lebanon County rifles in Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America, Vol II
Hard to find depth (thickness) dimensions unless you've taken them yourself from original rifles. I have some, but don't believe I ever had the honor to measure a J.P. Beck.

I'd be more inclined to make my own pattern, and have done so, from Joe Kindig's book Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age and/or good KRA publications.The Kentucky Rifle Foundation puts out several DVD's, one having black & white photos of two Beck's being Kentucky Rifle Photographs Volume I,; Issue I 2005. These are straight-on views, give no wrist thickness ideas.

If you've not already done so, log on to kentuckyriflefoundation.org & look it over. I just now ordered
a copy of 2012 Show - Best 20.

Why risk working with someone else's errors when you can go straight to the source?

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 07:13:06 AM »
You guys need to listen to Gary.   A plan is the wrong way to build a longrifle.    It will just lead to a mess.   I know,  I tried to do it that way with the first rifle I made over 30 years ago.   It was a rookie mistake.  I  remember that my grandfather tried to tell me building a gun from a book wouldn't work, but I thought I knew better.

You stock around your parts.  THEY dictate most of the dimension.   The only thing you need from your plan or photo is the profile of the comb and toe.   That is really the only place that you have some wiggle room in the stocking.   The width and height of the stock at the lock panels will be dictated by the barrel and lock.   The dimensions of the forearm will be dictated by the barrel and ramrod.  The wrist will be dictated by the lock panels (barrel and lock) and by the butt piece.    The butt piece is located relative to the barrel and lock/trigger based on your desired trigger pull, drop, and cast-off (or in you case being a lefty, the cast-on).    You lay everything out on the squared up stock blank.    The plan you draw on the stock blank is the only plan you need.    I will tell you right now that NOTHING on the finished gun is going to be perfectly, straight, square or plum.    I am willing to bet that your barrel isn't even perfectly symetrical and that will throw off all your best laid plans.  You measure a few things, but mostly everything is done by eye, and you have to be looking all the time from different angles and with different light.    Feeling will tell you as much or more than looking.   Of course, for all this to work right,  you have to know what a proper longrifle looks and feels like.   A plan will not do that.   You have to handle a lot of original guns and study them closely.    Picture will help some, but they will not replace having the gun in your hands.

     
Mark E.


Offline Rolf

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 12:15:59 PM »
Thank you all for the input.
I guess I'll have to redraw the pattern to what fits and looks rigth. Living in Norway, don't have access to original gun (or good contemporary guns).
I have the standard referens books like RCA 1+2, Thoughts
on he Kentucky rifle, etc.

After building pistols,I think I know how to shape the stock from the muzzle to the end of the lockplates. It's the butt and wrist that freaks me a bit out. Geuss I'll have to make a few quaker stocks out of pine wood to get an idea of what I want.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 07:49:12 PM »
Contemporary Kentucky Rifles from American Pioneer Press is the next best thing to holding an original for anyone who cannot do that. I have vol. 1-4 and it is amazing.
Eric Smith

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 08:46:03 PM »
I'll second another comment.  Listen to Flintriflesmith.

Offline Rolf

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 11:10:49 PM »
Contemporary Kentucky Rifles from American Pioneer Press is the next best thing to holding an original for anyone who cannot do that. I have vol. 1-4 and it is amazing.

I have those dvd's and I agree, they are great!!! Wish they would make more. I like the way they rotate the guns while filming. It help's visualizing the 3d perspective.


Best regards
Rolf

Offline Rolf

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 11:19:19 PM »
I'll second another comment.  Listen to Flintriflesmith.

I will follow riflesmiths advice, but I'll do a couple of quaker stocks as test/practice runs.
I did that on my silver kentucky pistol project. Posting and discussing the test stocks helped me weed out the worst mistakes. Since I havn't seen/handled any good contempary rifles, I don't have a clear "picture" of what I want to make. Test runs help me focus the picture.

Best regards

Rolf

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 11:59:59 PM »
Rolf you need to come on a tour of Williamsburg and  Dixon's gun Shop and let some of our PA builders get you in to see some collections. Nothing compares to being able to hold the real thing!! You need a vacation this winter!!
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Offline volatpluvia

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 04:54:27 AM »
Rolf,
I have always been too lazy to practice, especially to build a practice stock.  Just remember to go slow, and step back and look at your stock as you shape and remove wood.  When it looks right don't remove anymore wood.  Even if the dimensions are not just like those of the gonne you are copying, it does not matter.  If it looks right it is right.
volatpluvia
I believe, therefore I speak.  Apostle Paul.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 12:38:34 AM »
Since the parts determine the build I do not think that someone else's blueprint is more than a reference, one of many sources ot help plan a build.  I enjoy making a blueprint for each gun as it reminds me especially the dimensions I want for the web and allows me to get a look at how my parts will work together.  I do a sketch of the carving on it too.  Things may change with the build as it goes along.  I still need to do a lot of thinking about what I am doing next as I don't build guns very often.
Andover, Vermont

Offline JCKelly

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Re: How do I adapt a rifle blue print to fit a larger barrel size?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 03:00:08 AM »
emailed Rolf separately. Have some thickness dimensions taken from Vince Nolt's JP Beck.

Personally mistrust anyone else's "pattern", but then I am a cynical Control Freak.