Author Topic: A question (Read 26868 times)

Jim Kibler · « **on:** September 22, 2012, 08:52:58 PM »

Advice is often given by those who have given much of their life to this stuff and are widely respected. Why is it that this is often ignored or contradicted by those with much less experience, knowledge and ability? I realize everyone has opinions and egos, but perhpas there is a time check them. What do you think? Am I out of line for questioning this?

alex e. · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2012, 09:08:59 PM »

You see it also on other forums,not only here.some historical/reenacting sites have the same happenings.I think rather than keep an open mind and learn something,some cannot admit fault do not want to do any research,Or are too thin skinned to take constructive criticism.Others just seek justification for doing it their way[right or wrong].
Some people call them out on their ways,it can be done civilly.
but one gets tired giving advice to people who don't listen.so they stop giving it or leave. A couple other forums/boards come to mind.
On those sites I have noticed more than a few questions go unanswered.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2012, 09:26:43 PM »

Jim, I don't have a good answer for you. It is a very good question. I can pose some thoughts off the cuff.

If you held a class, you advertised that it had a very narrow scope of gun study, it would attract a certain level of builder/student. You wouldn't get students suggesting different modern ways to build.

But on this Board, you have people building at all skill levels and fields of interest from very stringent traditional to fairly modern contemporary. And everyone is trying to be helpful.

With an online format such as this, it's also difficult to know who the teacher is, and who's the student. Speaking for myself, I am both teacher and student.

Long Ears · « **Reply #3 on:** September 22, 2012, 09:36:01 PM »

I think there are some people who just don't get it. They think there way or idea is the best or only way to do things. I like to learn at even at my age I still try thinks that are out of my comfort zone just to learn a new process or procedure in the build. I figured out pretty quick who are the best here and I pay a lot of attention to a guy who makes a living doing this or has won a bunch of awards with his work. So I hope I'm not one of those you are talking about! I swear there are guys out there that will argue with a fence post just to be heard. I certainly appreciate the time and advice you guys give. It sometimes is advice that has taken a lifetime to acquire or a lot of money wasted learning. The rest is best stated by Tom when he says just lock it away in your building encyclopedia as something read but never tested. Bob

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #4 on:** September 22, 2012, 10:18:51 PM »

Here is what I think I have learned about this

and how I try to manage myself. What I learn from the artists on this site is very valuable to me, as are the friendships.

Ego's prevent learning.....or at least make it difficult... hubris or arrogance often comes as a result of feeling threatened.....Napoleon complex..... To help people check their egos we need to make ALR as non-threatening as possible.... that means we need to not threaten AND not allow ourselves to feel threatened

We need to consider these sorts of items and see if the shoe fits

Sometimes it is not clear who the most experienced and most talented are, especially to new and/or inexperienced...
We could put rank insignia on profiles or ask.....I have sent people PMs and told them to listen up, that ____ is one of the most experienced and sought after makers in the world.....listen to him.
Some people are trying to prove themselves and feel the need to compete...gets in the way of learning
Some need to say what they think and have others correct them...messy, but it does work
Some experienced builders talk down to beginners or amateurs... not often on this board.
When people feel threatened their ears close and their mouths flap....
Some of us just like to hear ourselves talk

All that and we just need to be quick to say I am sorry when we are prideful and not earning what we could..... everybody loses

FL-Flintlock · « **Reply #5 on:** September 22, 2012, 10:37:03 PM »

So let's be fair and ask the pertinent question:
What constitutes a "argument"? Is an "argument" merely presenting an optional way of doing something? ... or ... Is presenting factual information verses misconception/myth the "argument"?

I see these questions posted on forums, constant complaints about "the argument". Well let's define "the argument" instead of just complaining.

Mark

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #6 on:** September 22, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »

Jim, I wouldn't get too concerned about it. It is not that hard to discern which are those that who really know what they are doing from those who would like to held in the same level of esteem. When you, Ian Pratt, Don Getz, Eric Kettenberg and a number of other true artisan/builders well known in the longrifle circles provide input I certainly know how to weight any responses from the not so accomplished. The only reason I hang around here is to have access to the handful who are really skilled and studied. The rest are just noise (like me). I would venture the great bulk of the members are at least as discerning so you needn't feel required to defend your information. And those who really belong in the accomplished category seldom come into disagreement with each other, the information is reinforcing not contradictory. For my part anything the proven artisans submit is greatly appreciated and studied far beyond what you may imagine.

Rolf · « **Reply #7 on:** September 22, 2012, 11:06:10 PM »

I highly value the advice given to me on this this site. It's been a great help to me and I hope for advice and guidence on my future projects.

best regards
ROlf

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** September 22, 2012, 11:12:32 PM »

I recently got kicked off the MLF/TVM board for telling some hard head that I wouldn't give him information because he wouldn't listen anyway and it would go right over his head. I probably should not allowed my self to have been baited into that comment and just kept my mouth closed. With the controversy of my getting the boot several other knowledgeable members left also. There are a few excellent members from this board that still try to help over there....they have the patience of Jobe....

I believe the board owner was looking for a chance to cut me off at the knees anyway. Oh well, his loss.

Very few informative posts over there these days. I donated a tremendous amount of time over there as well as made that building tutorial for that board. In my case there were definately some strong personalities that had a bone to pick with everything I posted....it got quite tiresome.
Now this board. Most excellent. I still learn stuff here all the time and am reminded daily how few skills I actually have when compared to a high percentage of other members. I don't "help out" alot as any questions asked are usually answered quickly and correctly, no reason to say the same thing twice.
But I do tend to get in trouble....I've been told my communication skills lack.

Probably true. But I shoot straight from the hip and I'll tell you what I think, no wishy washy touchy feely stuff for me. What I like is you can get a great critic of your work that cuts right through the fat. No pea brains stacking on a bunch of "atta boys" for poor work, just good qualified guidance and opinion.

alex e. · « **Reply #9 on:** September 22, 2012, 11:22:38 PM »

TVM Board..

Just about the truth.......................

Dave B · « **Reply #10 on:** September 22, 2012, 11:25:14 PM »

Back when I was doing demos for Wood Crafters in Portland OR showing my carving on longrifles. I had a guy stop buy and watch for a bit then say he used to build guns and had loads of experience. I was ready to get some good discussion about building when the other shoe dropped. He then wanted to know who I was buying my kits from. He shared how he liked the CVA best but also built TC as well. At that time all my rifles on the table were built from blanks and I explained as much and with that the conversation abruptly ended. On the other had I had a fellow stop by and quiz me about my wire inlay and how I did it. We talked for a half an hour or so. After a couple months I came back in and one of the guys shared that he was one of the better Luthier's in town and he was now doing beautiful wire work on his pieces now. I think for some of us enjoy the sharing of information and teaching but it needs to be tempered with good listening as well. After being involved here the the past 5 yrs the rehashing of debated topics gets old but the Archives seem to be overlooked by most new folks which is also a pain.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2012, 01:34:33 AM »

Good listening skills are very important. (actually reading comprehension

)
I have fired off responses when I didn't get the nuance of the question, reading the question too fast, or not paying full attention.

I've also posted some incorrect info, and generally I get slapped for that. That's good.

billd · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2012, 01:46:29 AM »

Maybe the new builder who asks the question doesn't know who is replying. Or who to listen too. Someone just getting into this hobby, or addiction, may not know Wallace Gusler from Paul Bunyon. They both cut wood.

Bill

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2012, 01:48:17 AM »

Quote

I've also posted some incorrect info, and generally I get slapped for that. That's good.

I'm never wrong so I don't know how that would feel.

mlrifleNY · « **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2012, 01:48:23 AM »

I'm new here even though I have been shooting muzzle loaders sense the mid 70's. I started to build longrifles back then because I couldn't afford to pay what a real one cost. I have all the books talked about being the best but still I hadn't seen an actual longrifle up close. My first 3 were loosely based off modern muzzle loaders. I wish we had this kind of info back then. Any photos I put up I am more than willing to hear from the top builders here.You can't hurt my feelings, it is the best way to learn.

Jim

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2012, 01:50:51 AM »

Quote from: mlrifleNY on September 23, 2012, 01:48:23 AM

I'm new here even though I have been shooting muzzle loaders sense the mid 70's. I started to build longrifles back then because I couldn't afford to pay what a real one cost. I have all the books talked about being the best but still I hadn't seen an actual longrifle up close. My first 3 were loosely based off modern muzzle loaders. I wish we had this kind of info back then. Any photos I put up I am more than willing to hear from the top builders here.You can't hurt my feelings, it is the best way to learn.

Jim

Boy ain't that the truth, we've come along way. Back when I started Algore hadn't even invented the internet yet!

Cory Joe Stewart · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2012, 03:45:49 AM »

I have never tried to teach someone to build a gun, but I teach college history courses. I see the same thing. People come to the classroom with set notions and refuse to change them even when presented with hard evidence and research. People believe what they want to. I have a PhD in early American history and just recently had a student tell me that I needed to double check my fact because *&%&$*# on tv said differently. She agreed with the talking head on tv before she watched him, he said what she was comfortable with, what I said made her think. That can be offensive to folks.

Coryjoe

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #17 on:** September 23, 2012, 04:28:45 AM »

This is the internet, everyone's an expert.....

Ed

Eric Smith · « **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2012, 05:47:02 AM »

Anyone who follows this forum with the serious intention of learning how to build a flintlock rifle should not take long to learn who is an acomplished and recognised builder. I do have a bone to pick. I have over 500 posts, 99.9% of them dumb, stupid beginer questions. And this qualifies me to be a "Hero" member? Maybe we need to come up with a new membership category.

When I ask a question and get a responce from Gary Brumfield, Mike Brooks, Jim Kibler, Tom Curran, and some others in that league, I am appreciative. Some time it amazes me that they even bother, and I understand why many other great builders dont bother to participate in the ALR. The ALR is the only flintlock building forum I follow and support.

Gaeckle · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2012, 06:00:08 AM »

Quote from: Ed Wenger on September 23, 2012, 04:28:45 AM

This is the internet, everyone's an expert.....

Ed

Expert.........

"X" is an unkown

"Spurt" is a leak from pressure

X-Spurt

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2012, 07:38:35 AM »

Concur with E. Smith's suggestion to have a different system than Hero etc. I too am a hobbiest trying to learn from the qualified artists who frequent this site to help folks like me learn and to share the common interest in American Longrifles. Perhaps Dennis Glazner, Don Getz and whoever else Dennis figures would be a fair evaluator could put their heads together and confer an the elevated title commensurate with their studied and recognized artist abilities.

B Shipman · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2012, 07:46:30 AM »

Gaekcle, I prefer Mark Twain's definition of an expert. A !@*%&@ fool, one day ahead of the posse.

Pete G. · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2012, 02:33:42 PM »

Some will disagree because they don't know enough to know how much they don't know.

oldarcher · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2012, 03:14:55 PM »

I believe that the forums provide a wonderful knowledge base and am greatful for all of the advice that I read. I don't necessarly believe what I read no matter who provides it. I do evaluate all information that is provided and if it is plausable I mentially file it away and verify it when I can. I try to learn what to do, and what not to do, and there is really a lot of what not to do out here....

JohnTyg · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2012, 03:25:01 PM »

Those with "much less experience, knowledge and ability", simply don't always have the background knowledge to realize what it is that they don't know; however may still want to contribute.
I think most beginners here (I include myself) who I see posting here do recognize their limitations and those are the most apt to gain from the greater experience of others.

I guess you just look at the source and accept it as such.

John

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing (depending on your profession).

News:

Author Topic: A question (Read 26868 times)

billd

mlrifleNY

oldarcher

JohnTyg