A question

[bama]

Jim, this is a very good question. There are some very talented builders on this site with an abundace of knowledge that everyone can benifit from.

When I was a young man my Grandfather taught me a very valuable lesson, Keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open. I have always tried to live by that and for the most part I have managed to do that.

I have been trying to build a good rifle now going on 35 years. The one thing I have found out is the more I learn the less I actually know.

This board has been a tremendous help with all the knowledge that is shared here. I for one am happy for all those that do share their knowledge here.

I have also learned that there are those that think that they know more than they actually do and they let that show from time to time. I hope that most of us have the sence to determine this and just over look it.

I have only one regret about this board and that comes from the question you have asked. I know that there are very knowledgable individuals that used to post here that do not anymore. That is because their comments were met by some on this board with very argumentive comments form various people that consider their opinions much better. Allmost attacking the other poster.

This I consider to be very rude. I have no problem with differences of opinions, that is what makes the world go round. We are all breathern here that love the Long Rifle. If you see something on this board and do not agree with then do one of two things, make a gentelmanly responce or ignore it but do not attack.

Again, thanks to all that do post their knowledge here.

[wbgv]

There is truth in the old saying..'A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'

[Eric Smith]

Let us all aspire to be gentlemen and scholar's. Refer back to George Washington's " Rules of Civility & Decent Behavior." If that doesn't suit you remember the words of Woodrow F. Call. " I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it!"

Eric Smith

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
You are certainly not out of line but I don't think there is anything that realistically can be done and simultaneously maintain a democratic forum.  I think the onus is on the information receiver who must judge the value of the information and "buyer beware".  I think over time it becomes clear who knows his stuff and who does not.

dave

[bonron]

Acer:In my 80 years I have found I learn the most by just shutting my mouth and opening my ears and my brain. Ron

[smylee grouch]

This is a very good topic and thanks for bringing it up. There are instances where a person post a question or reply and they use the wrong terminology or selection of words thus elisting a negitive response. I have seen this from people who are just begining the hoby to those with a long association with the hoby. As has been said being gentlemanly will bring more positive responses.   Smylee

[44-henry]

I don't post a lot here anymore, but this thread caught my eye. Jim, you are well educated so I must ask did you not question anything that your professors ever said to you? Your field is not without change and lots of research continues to be performed that changes the state of knowledge over time. Given this, why do you feel that it is so bad to question advice given? As an educator, my PhD is in higher education, I find it rather boring when students sit and listen to what I say without any comment. I personally want students to disagree, at least it gets people to pay attention and this promotes learning, not the blind faith that what I say is the true word and there aren't any other possible alternatives that exist. The way that we understand our work today is quite different than what was accepted practice in the 1940's,50's, 60's and even 70's. There is no doubt that the art has advanced to the next level and has brought our understanding of how things were done to the past much closer than was true in past years. Still, I am quite positive there are things that we don't know and never will if new ideas and methods are not continually explored.

This is not to say that all methods are correct and should not be corrected when seen, but please leave out the blanket statments that all those who oppose are unworthy of your attention because that is counterproductive and not within the spirt that this forum was created. Nobody ever said that being an educator was simple, it takes the patience of a saint at times. But keep in mind that we all start somewhere. Some of those who ask the most seemingly disrespectful questions today might be the builders that others look up to tomorrow for advice.

So there is my 2 cents, feel free to roast me for it, perhaps it will get an interesting discusssion started and the learning can continue.

[Jim Kibler]

There is nothing wrong with questioning and debating facts etc.  It was good to be able to question professors, but I understood their expertise and respected that relative to my own.  I knew they were the teacher and deserved to be!  For anyone that knows me, they will tell you that I love to debate the merits of an idea or approach.  What I am refering to is somewhat different.  It is common for those who have spent much of their lives gaining understanding and ability to not be respected and in some cases ignored or contradicted with little reasoning involved.  (And I'm not refering to myself.)    For example some accomplished builder may go to great lengths to explain their process to finish a stock to obtain what they beleive is a historically correct or aesthetically pleasing finish only to have someone who finished one kit gun respond by saying all you need to do is get some leather dye and the finish will be great.   Maybe it is true that some don't know any better.  I will tell you these reasons I've given are why there aren't more accomplished people that participate here.  Even some of the kindest people have developed the attitude of "why bother".  There are a few that have pretty thick skin and continue to join in.   

[Jim Kibler]

One more comment...  and this may ruffle some feathers.  It's pretty easy for some to talk or type.  What gets respect in my view are those that show results.  Those are the people I listen to.

[Acer Saccharum]

Ed Wenger is spot on: Everyone on the Web is an expert.

Everyone must take responsibility upon themselves when deciding to accept or reject information. No one made you accept their opinion, you chose the answer you liked best, that fit your vision, or you thought was most correct. You have to sift through all the mud to get to the nugget that's at the bottom of the pan.

Likewise, if you feel you are right in the opinion you have offered, and you find people challenging you, you can take it with a grain of salt, or get ticked off and leave the room. I encourage you to stay on, for your readers will truly appreciate your input. Your input is what makes the ALR so valuable.

Who are the experts, and who are those spreading mis-information? Shall we start with a list? This is a very bad concept, and one that would surely be a blood-bath, with the ALR declining into a stinking miserable cock-fight site, and ego-fest, for sure.

The web is a messy and conflicted place. But it's also an incredible resource. Take it for what it's worth.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim in respect to your two posts above, I understand where you're coming from.

I have seen that as well, where someone just is so proud of their work, they have 'arrived', and have no need to know any more, they know it all.

That is far different from the guy who is proud of his work and shows it, and suddenly finds that he has much to learn. He may not admit this immediately, but it may come to him months later, when he says 'hey I have a lot to learn'. I know this from personal experience, as this is me.

I am all about passing on information to those who I feel will benefit. Here on the Web, a reply made reaches hundreds. It may not reach the person who asked the question, but it certainly reaches many others.

[Dave B]

Amen Tom!  I am humbled on a regular basis on this site and will stock pile all the tips and tricks like a squirrel when I come across some thing that is helpful.
This was early on in my being a member when you were starting to sketch out your cheak piece and I attempted to coach you on your drawing technique with out knowing your skill level and boy did I get egg on my face

[Tom Currie]

Regarding the idea that actual " masters  " be identified in some way I agree with Acer that that would a awfully slippery slope . Most of us that have been here a while know who the masters are with out a E-tag on them.

And to you masters that may become frustrated by newbies or know-it-alls, please keep in mind, your participation here is what makes ALR valued by many us of that listen and value your opinions.

[Acer Saccharum]

.... I attempted to coach you on your drawing technique with out knowing your skill level and boy did I get egg on my face

DAve, I am very embarrassed by your kindly comment, but I have to say that this board has provided me with such support (and corrections) over the years, I consider myself blessed.

I also learned that I don't know it all, I am constantly making mistakes, but have learned the lesson the hard way: Look at original work.


I have brought my work to people whose work I hold in the highest regard for feedback, and instead on an atta-boy, I have gotten 'this could be more like such and such, you need to go look at such a rifle...etc'. So now I really try to make something believable, and that takes study.

I have been developing skills all my life, but the artistic eye and wisdom come slowly. It is a CONSTANT learning experience, no matter how much you know.

I do not speak of learning as drudgery, it is most enthralling to be chasing down a theory, or researching a design.

[Dennis Glazener]

Lots of good discussion on this thread, probably should keep my mouth shut but one thing I keep thinking about. The purpose of this board is to, "promote, preserve and support the traditional art and craft of building and using the American Longrifle". It would be great if every new member would be the type that would just take in all that is said and soak it up like a sponge but unfortunately not all humans are made that way. What can the members and moderators of this board do to discourage those that don't behave or act as they should? I believe the best way is to ignore them. I for one know that when I am ignored I soon get the message and either keep quite and listen or I leave. I really hate to see people that truly want to learn lose out because of some that think they all ready know everything. Just my 2 cents worth.
Dennis

[cheyenne]

I have no right to weigh in on this discussion, but do want to stress the importance of ALR and it's members....there are some of the best builders ever to build a longrifle here and I have been a member for some time, yet my post count is rather low....guess I'm a sponge as I read and take in all I can. I still go back thru the archives alot looking for some tid bit to get me over a hump in a project.

I do go to the MLF/TVM forum, but do not post much there, and find since Mike and many others left, there just isn't much to read anymore. 

[Mike Brooks]

Who are the experts, and who are those spreading mis-information? Shall we start with a list? This is a very bad concept, and one that would surely be a blood-bath, with the ALR declining into a stinking miserable cock-fight site, and ego-fest, for sure.

Hey, Cock fights are one of my favorite past times.   I wouldn't worry over much about the board. It flows smoothly 99% of the time.
 I don't mind helping new folks, I have spent many years teaching gun building classes and have spent loads of time helping on the computer also. One of the greatest moments for me personally here was to post several of my guns for critique. Very helpfull stuff indeed! I was a bit apprehensive because of the skill level of many of the members, but you can't learn anything unless you get some feed back.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Who are the experts??

Depends on what kind of rifle you are building.  But they are on here. 

My work schedule keeps me from traveling to shows as much as I would like so without this forum I would not have access to the likes of Dennis Glazener, Mike Brooks, Jim Kibler, Tom Curran, Gary Sheffield, Mark Elliot, Guy Monfort,  this list could go on for the whole post you know.

A lot of these folks I have also e-mailed directly with help and all have responded and been helpful.  If folks get mad at a critique, that usually has way more to do with the listener, not the person offering the criticism. 

Coryjoe

[rich pierce]

I've been out of town and am just reading this.  Good discussion.  I liked Tim Boone's response; there's a lot in there.  I do think that there are a lot of non-posters who take good advice really seriously.  A quiet majority.  Making a judgment about how the advice is perceived based on replies is probably a small and biased poll.  As a moderator I get to see a lot of "thank you's" from folks who seldom post but say they are learing a lot here.

Some builders want to build a functional, decent looking rifle that is special compared to mass produced rifles like Thompson Center, CVA, etc. and don't know why anyone would want to do it the hard way, do all the research, etc.  This forum is about the only game in town.  There used to be decent discussion over on the Muzzleloading forum but anyone who knew anything about original guns or how to build them got drowned out.  The result is that some rookies who don't know what they don't know have come here.

Other folks are just cantankerous and if you said the moon looks white, the sun yellow and the spring grass looks green, would disagree with all three points.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

This is a good subject. I agre :-[e with Mr Smith, over time one can tell who has the knowledge and the know how. I've PMed those I knew could answerspecific questions. I reflect back to my Frankenstein build and the way I handled t he answers given and how I comprehended what I read.  Really wish things had been different then. I remember questioning the advice given by some of the best in the business.
  I am glad to say, I decided to take the time to develop my skills further before trying again.

  I like to think this forum has helped me become a better person. I don't consider myself a gunbuilder,  but someone who loves to learn about gunbuilding

   Rich

[PPatch]

Here is what I think I have learned about this and how I try to manage myself.  What I learn from the artists on this site is very valuable to me, as are the friendships.

I will spare everyone the repeat of Dr. Tim's full post but I would like to remark: "Well Said" Tim!

Someone else posted that it is pretty easy to learn who on this site qualifies in the top builders ranks - I find this true. One quickly spots those who do outstanding work, have the skills, talent and the artistic expression to produce remarkable longarms. I am also finding that very often it is those same individuals who will step forward with answers or at least their considered thoughts on a given question. This is good, during my research for my upcoming build I have found contradictory information regarding aspects of just about every step of building. This site has provided me with a "clearing house" to aid me in sorting out the good from the not so good. You guys are doing fine, keep at it.

dp

[b bogart]

I do alot of reading and listening. I enjoy trying to build rifles, but have little of the experience or talent most do. I will post what I do for corrections, etc. In fact the LOg Cabin Shop is/was offering a building class on a smoothbore I believe. As much as I wanted to participate I did not as that was not what I interested in makng and would have detracted from the class. Usually when I question something that clearly knows more than I, it's usually because I don't understand but wish to! Most that argue do not have the open mind it takes to learn new things. Besides this is supposed to be enjoyable, right? Don't worry Jim, et al, a bunch of us do listen and take it all in.

[Jim Kibler]

To be clear, what prompted this post wasn't any perceived slight I received, but rather others not being respected.  Guess it's sort of a thing that builds up over time as well.  I know it's an uncomfortable topic, but it is very valid and important in my view.  With that said, I agree that much of the time things run pretty smooth here.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim, I think this is a fabulous post. I think we've all put a lot of thought to a subject that really doesn't get aired much. Thanks, Tom

[Larry Pletcher]

I’d like to write my thoughts from my background as a teacher.  When I was teaching I thought the only thing more fun than learning was teaching.  After retiring, I think the only thing more fun than teaching is learning.

On this forum I am a learner.  I consider myself a student of the flintlock but to call me a builder is a huge exaggeration. It is the desire to learn that makes the forum so valuable to me.  The gun building talent here is amazing, but even more valuable is that so many of you builders are also great teachers.  This is apparent not only in the classes you teach, but also in the well thought out answers you write here. A highlight is that so often the answer includes photo examples. 

As a teacher I realized that some students are more difficult than others. I’m sure that happens here as well.  Rest assured there are far more of us that really want to learn.  I think we all hope at some point we can contribute, but the ability to soak up new ideas like a sponge may be used much more often.

I once had the chance to tape a panel discussion that included Wallace Gusler, Jim Chambers, Bob Harn, Mark Silver, and LC Rice. It was a great time to act like a sponge.  Our forum may be the next best thing.

Regards,
Pletch