What do you think?

[Mark Elliott]

This is the first rifle I have finished in two years and I think I may have spent too much time on it, not that I spent two years working on it.   I spent about six weeks over two years, but I had a lot of time to think about things in between steps and the decoration definitely changed over time.   Somethings were redone a time or two.   I tried a lot of things, and it is not supposed to be anything particular other than a Mark Elliott creation.   I DID try to produce a coherent design.    It is LOOSELY based on some Southwest VA guns but I definitely got contemporary with the silver wire and to a lesser degree, the engraving.   I finished all the metal to a degree that I have never seen on an original rifle and then I decided to age the gun, or at least made a pass at it. I may take another pass at it depending on the response here.    I am thinking that I should polish all the metal back to a dull even gray and scrub the stock down until the whole stock is light.   Just a thought.    Anyway,  take a look and tell me what you really think.   I won't hold any lifelong grudges over it.   I promise

Thanks,

Mark E.

[Mark Elliott]

If you want more information on the rifle or to see full resolution versions of the images go to my web site at http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2012/09/rifle-11-s-w-va-rifle/

There is detail, particularly the engraving that you can't see on the low resolution images I posted here.   However,  the gun definitely looks better at a distance than at about 4 times magnification.    You can see things in the photos, I can't see with my naked eye or in the florescent light of my shop which might explain some of the problems.    However,  I do most things with a Optivisor these days and I do have new glasses on order.    

[rich pierce]

Regarding the finish, I think the stock is not too dark but the aged metal does stand out in contrast to the clean stock with no sign of aging.  I think that's incongruent or takes away from the coherence of the rifle.

The rifle is well executed but the mix of styles leaves me guessing a little.  As an example, the lock panels look quite early in form, and might be more fitting on a rifle made 60 years earlier than those I usually see during the general period of this rifle (guessing 1820-1830).

[Mark Elliott]

Rich,

I was going for something generally around 1800 as far as the general profile and mounts, but you are right in that most of the iron mounted rifles of the late flint period had bulkier lock panels, at least in front and back of the lock.     The thing is that I wasn't trying to produce a strictly traditional gun.   I wanted something more refined, and I am pretty sure am going to do the same thing on the iron mounted chunk gun that I am building for myself.   It does make the gun look more streamlined.   I have gotten to hate thick lock panels.   They look unfinished to me.

This rifle and the chunk gun I am working on now are fantasy guns.   I never intended them to be strictly traditional.     They are more pure works of art.   I think the only thing that really matters here is if you like it or not.    I took what I knew would be a risk in a number of areas and now I am finding out what people think of it.   I realized when I did it that the reaction might be very negative.

With regard to the color of the stock, the lighter areas of the stock are where I scrubbed the finish back to represent wear.   It was probably a stupid thing to do.   I was just playing around with different ways to age the stock.   What I ended up doing was a glaze of my standard gunstock finish and lamp black artists oil paint.  I painted the entire gun black with this glaze and then scrubbed it back with steel wool.   I tried to scrub it more in areas that I felt would get more wear.   I don't think I did a very good job of that and I know to do such a thing on a contemporary gun doesn't make sense.   Like I said, I was just trying some things.   I am pretty sure that I am going scrub the whole stock back to the predominantly lighter color.   I may even refinish it.   The finish color can be changed.  The lock panels can't, but I am pretty happy with that aspect of the gun.   

We will see what some other folks have to say.    I am bracing for the reaction of some of the more traditionalists.

Thanks,

Mark
   

[rich pierce]

Mark, I think that stock wear looks best matched with some gunk and scars.  Here's an original West Virginia rifle quite a bit later.  The gunk on the buttstock is really heavy.





I don't think aging looks out of place on contemporary/fantasy guns- see it and like it on Woodbury guns all the time.

[smylee grouch]

Very nice,slender and sleek looking. I agree with Rich but would take the gun as is in a heart beat. Smylee

[Bob Roller]

 That is an elegant rifle and I am a man who cares not for wire inlays
 but these are so nicely done and restraint exercised in volume and
placement.Any less wouldn't be enough and any more would be too much.
Well done,sir.

Bob Roller

[G-Man]

That sure is some nice iron work Mark - very neatly done but not overdone.  It's a fine line sometimes.  You have a distinctive sideplate design - you can see the originals that inspired it but you have adapted it to your own style which I like - I think you have used a similar design before on one of your earlier guns.  Anyway, I like it.  The iron is not pitted or overly aged so I don't think it stands out too much in contrast to the wood finish - that is, I think if someone carries and shoots this gun for a couple of years and does not get fussy with overly cleaning the external areas of the gun the wood will catch up.

Regardless, a nice iron mounted gun.

Guy

[Gaeckle]

Rich, when you talk of aging do you mean like this?

[pathfinder]

I agree with Bob,I am no fan of wire inlay's,even on Lehigh's! Other than that,as stated,it's of no particular design,it is a very fine piece that I would have no hesitation in carrying ANYWHERE! Nice clean work! Well done.

[flehto]

I'm not knowledgeable on time frames or these types of styles....all I do know is that it's got elegant architecture, the workmansip is excellent and the overall feeling is that of a pleasing, iron mounted LR......Fred

[Jack Hubbard]

I think the lines of the gun are great....A very nice piece of work.....I like the lock panels...I like what you did around the breech and tang......Not crazy about the wire inlay, but, its your work....Still, a very nice gun.....Thanks for sharing

[Roger Fisher]

Jeez Man: don't lighten that stock, she's great as she is.  Blondies are great; but not on a rifle stock to my mind at least.

[JCKelly]

Workmanship & overall appearance leaves me in awe.

Stock color beautiful - it would be a shame to lighten it.

If youre looking for a complaint, to my taste the silver wire inlay is too clean & bright. But your hands, black powder residue, chemicals even in the wood itself & the sulfur in our atmosphere will take care of that soon enough.

Personally unfamiliar with details of Southern style. Looks good to me.

For my own taste I make a distinction between "aging", i.e. patina such as on your rifle, and rough use/abuse such as gouges in the wood, heavy rust, marks on the metal.

Most important is YOU like it. You ain't a-gotta report to any of the rest of us.

[Mark Elliott]

Guys,  Thanks for the comments so far.   I do think I still need to do something with the finish, so more suggestions along those lines would be appreciated.    I am looking for a general critique here.  That is the only way you learn.    I do consider all comments.

Thanks,

Mark E.

[bgf]

I saw it last night, but there's too much both ways to just say, "I like it" or "I hate it".  The only thing I really hate is the wire inlay, which might not be so bad (as others have said) once it tarnishes.  As is, it really makes it feel "contemporary" to me. 

Minor dislikes are some aspects of the triggerguard -- I would have preferred to see a shorter grip-rail with a little more separation from the stock, and the bow seems to be too large in front compared to the ones I like (they usually "slope" up to the front return); it would be nice to see a spike on it that is a little less radically recurved.  My impression of that TG is that it is well made, but looks more like a later NC one than 1800 SW Va.  My opinion only, and I have narrow standards!

I don't associate that style of buttplate return strongly with SWVa at the time indicated.  If it is faceted and short, so should the comb of the stock be.  If not, your "3-sided" comb would be typical, although probably stronger.  I also like the common tapered return on the buttplate that narrows as it goes forward.  My subjective impression only--yours is too conventional PA or N. VoV for the triggerguard and overall look. 

The lock panels need to be a little thicker, esp. behind lock, but not a lot.  I think the wrist is a little thin vertically and long for SW Va., but I'm sure others like it.

I like the sideplate a lot, and it could be "dug up" any time from the variations I've seen.  The toeplate is neat and in line with the rest.  The patchbox is good, just not as good as it could be without the distracting neon inlay.  I love the touch of whimsy in the cheek inlay, and I wish you had left that as the "focal point"/fancy touch rather than the wire.

I love the color of the wood and don't see a problem with the finish on the metal.

Anyway, just my ignorant opinion.  And it is overall a rifle I'd love to look at in person.  Don't be taken aback that I feel strongly about some stuff, please.  If you don't offend, you're not doing art !

[heinz]

Mark, I think it has a lot of appeal as a Mark Elliot rifle.  It looks more like 1825 to me than 1800.  I like a lot of things, others not as well but, a lot of that is personal artistic judgement. AND your judgement is at least as good as mine,
I like the stock finish and am not that fond of the metal, but finishes are always hard to judge in photos.  I don't personally like the look that comes from cold blues, either played with or rubbed back and I am guessing this is cold blue.  My dislike is largely based on personal bias on cold blues and how they look and smell.  I think you get better aging from something that puts a little honest rust on the iron which you can then rub back or let proceed.  It give a bit more even darkness with variations of brown and black depending on how much you rub it back.
I agree with BGF on the wrist and the front site looks like a 2012 front site, or a can opener :-)
Again, just offering the opinion you asked for.  I like the rifle, just picking nits.

[Mark Elliott]

BGF,  I would agree with most of your criticisms with regard to the guard, the rear of the lock panel, and the wrist height.   To some extent these were mistakes or because of mistakes.   To my mind, that you identified them, lends credibility to your critique.      I  really like the wire and don't like what I did with the cheekpiece.    That cheekpiece was to hide some really bad initial wire work.   I really was going after the "NEON" wire effect.    I knew that was going to be a love/hate thing.   

I don't quite understand what you are trying to tell me about the heel extension of the butt piece and the comb.   My comb is not faceted.  Are you saying that it should be faceted?    I stopped the facets on the heel extension so that I wouldn't have to go to facets on the comb.   

The  iron mounted gun that I am building now,  will have a three faceted heel extension going into a three faceted comb.    The curve on that butt piece is maybe a little less than this gun.    I was debating about similar wire work on it or carving.   Given, your comments,  I may go more traditional on it.  I was leaning toward carving similar to the John Davison I have documented on my web site.    It is a chunk gun so it will be a very fancy chunk gun.   

Thanks very much for your well considered input.

Mark E.

[Acer Saccharum]

Mark, overall, I like this rifle. Rich mentions a mix of schools, but this does not bother me a tad.

I'd like to see a little more crusty grunge, crackled varnish under the cheek, behind it, around lock panels and at entry pipe and ahead of it to the nosecap. Keep the grip of the forestock just as you have it, wrist wear and color. Looks good. Tarnish the silver back some. For future work, taper the ends of the silver wire where it meets other scrolls. Perhaps some light rusting, rubbed back, on the steel parts. ( I use 44-40 or aqua fortis, then damp box the parts )

I have heard it can take a Looooong time to age a gun properly, almost as long as it took to build the thing. You have made a very nice gun, and the aging is coming along. Coming along, indeed, just more to do to make it convincing.

I am trying to successfully age my work, too.

Thanks for posting this.

Tom

[T*O*F]

Mark,
I really like the gun, but hate the silver.  It cheapens the gun.  It looks like an amateur bought a nice gun and then decided to try his hand at silver inlay.  Just being candid.

[Mark Elliott]

Tom,   Do you really think I should put more work into the aging or back off on it.   Given the bold contemporary look of the silver,  I was seriously considering cleaning it all up.

As you indicated,  a lot of time has been spent on the finish, metal and wood, and there will certainly be some more.   

Thanks,

Mark E.

[bgf]

Mark,
I've learned more from you than you'll ever get back from me, so just take any feedback from me as honest, not necessarily knowledgeable.  I figured you knew what a risk you were taking with the wire -- that is what I meant about "art"!  And it is not without precedent, as for example on the one in Noble vol. 1 where there is a wire outline around the rectangular grease hole in lieu of a patchbox.

Mainly, regarding the buttplate, I meant that in iron I would rather have seen an unfaceted one like the one on the Bogle, for example, or a faceted one without a ring transiton that carries the facets into the comb of the stock like the brass mounted "G.B." rifles.  On the un-faceted returns, the return often narrows quite a bit along the comb so that it is set into the wood (e.g. the iron mounted GB, or the Jacob Young Whitley rifle).  I see those variants as being stronger references to SW Va. than the faceted extension with ring transition, although I know it is not universal in any one way; it just seems to make a stronger statement.  And with iron, simpler seems to be the correct default, although they did selectively dress them up a bit at times.

I may be using wrong terminology when I say "3-sided"; I don't mean the wood is faceted (which is done also at times), but that the top of the comb is rounded and there is a distinct "corner" where the sides of the buttstock meet it, rather than being (e.g.) rounded smoothly into each other.  Yours does seem to do that (i.e. have a sharp transition, thus be "3-sided").  I hope I haven't confused the issue even more.

Any insight I had into the wrist and triggerguard were from making MUCH more obvious and elementary mistakes and miscalculations on my own !  The "SW Va." type is a really complex mixture of very subtle but very different (from e.g., PA) elements so that it is a miracle just to get a non-ridiculous rendition.  Yours is very well done and instantly evocative, so my criticism isn't harsh, just nit-picky, and in order to start a discussion in which I might learn something!
 
PS. That Davidson on your webpage has been one of my favorites for a while -- I like it better than THE "J.D." Davidson, esp. in terms of the carving. 

[Mark Elliott]

I pulled all the hardware off the rifle, scuffed it up and am re-rusting.   I will let it go until I have pits and then scrub back to a fairly even brown.   About the wood,  I am going to add more gunk, but not enough to cover up the "NEON" silver wire.   Actually, it might pop a bit more with the metal darker.    I know I am disgusting a number of you.

[Jack Hubbard]

Mark....Put the hardware back on and scuff or mess with it....You sure aren't disgusting me....I really like what you have done.....Get it where you think it should be and then go a bit futher.....Just my thoughts....

[Tim Crosby]

 I wouldn't do anything to it, looks good like it is. As for the wire, if you were trying for an 1800 time frame and the rifle survived 213 years it could have been added anytime.

   Tim C.