Author Topic: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12  (Read 10332 times)

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« on: September 26, 2012, 05:42:14 AM »
I've been having trouble with long posts lately so I might have to put this in 2 or 3 parts.  I just acquired this interesting rifle. It only has a 36" barrel but shows no sign of being cut off. It is swamped .960- .831- .868in. It is about 42 cal. rifled and has a 13.5in. LOP. It is unsigned. It looks very Berks Co. Pa. to me. What are your thoughts as to area and maker?













« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 12:21:54 AM by Nate McKenzie »

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 05:44:29 AM »
Yea! It worked.  Thanks for the help Dennis, Tim, and Acer.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 07:00:11 AM »
Thanks for posting this rifle, Nate. It is a classic Reading gun from Berks County, most probably. It seems to be scaled down and may have been for a woman or young person. Patch box is a very nice rendition of the Reading/Berks style. Incised carving is a bit sparse but finely done. The eight inlays, (and the incised carving) suggest a date of 1815, plus or minus a few. Condition is very fine. Has the gun been reconverted? The pan is in the English mode while the plate may, or may not, be Germanic. I have seen it both ways however, and a number of locks used in Berks County were English.
As to maker; no way to tell really as few of the earlier makers ever signed their guns up in that area. I think that this was made by an earlier, well experienced maker in his later years, after 1800. Could have been a Boyer, but that is just a guess. Thanks again. Hope you will put it in the Library.
Dick

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 02:27:41 AM »
No sign of reconversion.

Offline jdm

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2012, 02:49:27 AM »
Nate,
When it's Berks county and unsigned it must be Haga! At least there seems to be a high survival rate. That is a nice rifle glad it came your way.  JIM
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2012, 03:12:18 AM »
Nate,
Nice rifle, in comparrison to the Boyer rifles in the library I would agree with Dick. Congrats! Do you have any closeup pictures of the lock?
Buck

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 04:29:07 AM »
Nice looking rifle. The light butt carving and angled incised molding lines on cheekpiece seem related to the work of H. Eckler, but not strong enough to attribute. I think the barrel is probably shortened, although done very well. Note the rear sight sits back behind the rear ramrod pipe 4 or 5 inches...althought I don't see any signs of additional barrel pin holes in the forestock. Shelby Gallien

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 06:41:29 AM »
Nate, in looking carefully at the tang photo, I noted a what appears to be a seam, or a scratch(?) across it. Can you tell me what it is? I have a Berks gun that has a similar feature. It may be a compound constuction, or who knows what. I have never taken mine apart to check it, but it looks like a seam on the surface. Thank you again for posting this very nice rifle. If it is a Boyer, it is likely original length as he/they tended to use shorter barrels, in my experience.
Dick

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 06:42:26 AM »
Something bothers me.  Look at the picture of the ramrod pipe........doesn't it look like a Ted Cash thimble?..........Don

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 10:27:48 AM »
A good looking rifle but too me it has a too modern look,I would say it is much later and if an old rifle has been over restored .
Feltwad

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 09:10:37 PM »
A surprising number of Reading guns are in very fine condition. I have only seen a few that had been converted to percussion, or that had received harsh treatment. It may be that the Reading folks were reasonably well off and did not need to use their rifles as much as folks in the other areas.
The Reading gun in my possession is almost like new, but never has been restored. I have the chain of ownership going back 75 years: well before restoration became common. It was in an art museum.
One expert posed the idea to me that many of these pieces were built for the centenial of 1876 as a part if the commemorative observance. No data to back that up, but is an interesting thought.
My rifle is a 1780s gun and is a classic. I see no reason to suspect that Nate's gun is any different.
Dick

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 10:04:24 PM »
Dick, tang mark is just a scratch on the surface.  Just in front of tang and behind muzzle are two wriggle engraved bands. Also some in front of and behind rear sight. I'll try some pictures in better light. 

Offline JDK

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »
One expert posed the idea to me that many of these pieces were built for the centenial of 1876 as a part if the commemorative observance.

Well, if that were true it would kinda suck some of the romance out of owning one, wouldn't it?  I'm with you and will not believe that until proven otherwise. ;)

Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 11:36:25 PM »
Thank you Nate. Will look forward to seeing the lines as they are not always found either. Don't know why, but those Reading boys were bashful, or humble when it came to engraving and signing their work. Just a little ways away, you had Bonawitz, Reedy, and others engraving to the max although they didn't always sign their rifles either. Curious!!!
Dick

Offline Buck

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 11:52:00 PM »
Nate,
I also have a 1780-90' s Berks county rifle that is like new. Still original flint, I agree with Dick for some reason the rifles from that area have gone untouched. The cheek piece on my rifle is very similar to yours. It is pictured in the library as Rifle attributed to the Borough of Reading. I have been studying it for almost 3 years and the best attribution that we can come up with is Henry Mauger. There is a rifle that Shumway owned and pictured in Longrifle Articles pages 83-85 where he compares an old wreck to a intact Mauger rifle. The wreck has the remnants of a 5 piece patchbox. The patch box on my rifle is totally different but the carving is EXACTLY the same, especially the tang carving. I believe Dick's original theory of Boyer to be solid. I think that the 1876 retro theory might be a bit far fetched. Pretty labor intense for nostalgia. I think that somebody probably gave it a heavy handed scrub down in the past. Its a nice rifle thanks for posting.
Buck

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2012, 12:15:21 AM »
Okay. I just had to take it apart. I discovered some interesting things. There is a crack repair in the RR channel forward of the front pipe. The barrel is rifled with 7 grooves and one turn in the 36in. length. Remember it is swamped. Narrowest part is a little behind the front RR pipe.


Wriggle engraving at muzzle. Two bands.


Two bands of wriggle engraving at breech.


Wriggle engraving behind rear sight.


Wriggle forward of rear sight.


Lock inlet.


Lock.






Front barrel lug.


Middle lug.

Rear lug.


Thimbles are not Ted Cash. Here are comparisons.
Cash on left. Original on right. Note dimples inside.


Cash on left. Original on right. Note length and filing patterns.


The "scratch" on the tang is a very interesting repair. Just off the picture to the right is a capital D stamped into the oblique flat.


I have been contacted by a previous owner of this rifle. Here is what he has to say:

  "I owned the gun at one time.  I bought the rifle from Rudy Gleichman back in 1998 and kept it on my wall up until a few years ago. I know Rudy had the gun for quite some time as I took my time studying it before I bought it.
 
I came to the conclusion the barrel is of original length mainly because of the type geography that the gun came from, placement of the barrel keys and the wedding band engraving at the breech and muzzle. Several well know collectors agreed with my findings after the gun was dismantled in their presence.  The gun itself was made in an area of thick woods and narrow valleys. Up near Gratz or close by.  I believe it was made by Peter Bellis/Belles with a strong influence from Leonard Reedy. I doubt  the gun is any earlier than 1820.  Whether it was made for a women or boy has proven to be a difficult determination as the trigger pull was 13" or 131/2" if I remember correctly, standard for a man. I think the barrel length had more to do with the area used than age or gender of the user.
 The long and short of the story:  You have a great gun! And now a little history.  Congratulations!"

  "Suggest you make reference to the info I have provided Re: the barrel length. Indicate the info came from respected collectors and a previous owner. If you want references to the barrel length vetting I'm sure I can get it in writing for your files and the next owner. Boyer lived and worked quite close to where Bellis/Belles lived but he or any member of his family did not make this gun. Their carving was completely different. Your quickest reference to Bellis/Belles would be Kindig's book. If you don't have it I'll figure out away to get you photo copies on the section on Bellis/Belles. I'll be looking for the additional info I have during next week. Note: I eliminated both Boyer and Eckler in my original study, 15 years ago, to determine a potential maker. Still think it's a Bellis/Belles or late Reedy."

  "So that you know: I have gone back into my notes and have determined the individual I originally sold this gun to had a family issue that required him to sell his collection a few years back. He placed this gun and the rest of his stuff in an auction.  Steve Hench wrote this gun up for the auction house. He indicated the barrel had been shortened in his first description. When I challenged him he agreed to inspect the gun again and restated a correction of his original opinion. The damage had been done, however, and his correction, although announced at the block, went unnoticed. So there are a few people out there who probably only remember the first description and not the correction."
 
  "As far as the condition of the gun; I always thought it was a good clean original finish. Never once did I feel it had been restored but I did think someone had cleaned the brass at one point in it's life."
 
  "Short Barrel Kentuckies are rare [see article KRA Bulletin Vol.23,No2 by Reeves Goring] .  I can guarantee 95% of the people that see one will tell you the barrel has been shortened. Most of them have their head up their butt!!"
 


« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 10:57:34 PM by Nate McKenzie »

Offline JTR

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2012, 06:07:14 AM »
Nate, I think that's a fine looking rifle, and thanks for posting it!
From what I see in the pictures it looks like a very nice condition original gun, with no convincing signs of the barrel ever having been longer.
Thanks for the additional pictures as well. I enjoy seeing works, just as much as seeing the exterior!

John
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2012, 06:44:06 AM »
Thanks for the extra photos, Nate. They reveal a lot and raise many more questions at the same time. I have looked at Peter Belles rifles and they are pretty rare. I have seen maybe three in my years of chasing. Kindig has only one in his book, "Thoughts... ."
While your gun does have the two rivet PB lid, it is pretty solidly Reading. The side plate is cast rather than cut out. Belles engraved his patch boxes most of the time, and his PB side plates do not even come close.  Not sure he made this one, and I doubt it. I saw Rudy Gleichman's Belles rifle though it has been many years ago. My recollection does not match.
This doesn't appear to be a Reedy gun either. It likely was made east of Reading somewhere, by someone who knew what he was doing. Belles cheekrest inlays usually were a crescent moon of silver rather than a star. The wriggle line barrel engaving is a real perplexing feature. Haven't seen that in earlier pieces such as this one, before.
The 'D' is likely the barrel maker's mark. If you can identify who that was, you likely can put a date to the manufacture of the gun. D. Christ was a well known barrel maker up in that region. H maybe the one.
The tang is a compound piece and since mine is similar, makes me wonder if some barrels didn't come from the maker with a breech plug in place. The builder then modified that to make a correct tang by adding metal on to the plug and shaping it into what was needed.
The carving has some similarity to that of Belles, but that found on your gun is more pleasing than what I have seen thus far. If Belles it your guy, this was an early piece by him.
Another observation, the photos do not show a reconversion nor a shortening of the barrel. It's a great little gun and good on you for getting it.
Dick

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Re: Original rifle
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 10:51:51 AM »
Something bothers me.  Look at the picture of the ramrod pipe........doesn't it look like a Ted Cash thimble?..........Don

What do you think now, Don?

    Joe.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 03:35:35 PM »
 A very nice rifle that I would be proud to own.
 An old mentor of mine told me to assume they are all reconversions and you won't be disappointed. Further, I have no problems with a well done reconversion. With that out of the way, you are not going to convince me that all the pitting on the lock side of the barrel breech came from flashes of priming powder in that pan of that lock. Note there is no similar erosion of pan or enlargement of touch hole.
I don't believe the thimbles are new. However, Ted Cash does or at least used to make a thimble very similar to what is on this rifle. The one shown for comparison is a different model he also makes.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »
Nate.....not that Ted Cash thimble, compare it to the one that has octagon flats and the round part on the ends have one
or two lines cut into it.   Normally, the flats will end at a round band.  The gun itself is in outstanding condition.  I also
doubt that it was done by D. Boyer.....his stuff wasn't this good.  ....Don

Offline Buck

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2012, 04:52:38 PM »
Thanks for the additional pictures. I believe Don to be right in saying it is a reconversion. There is a copious of burn on the barrel which indicates a former percussion system. The edges in the pan are a bit too crisp and do not match the extent of burn corrosion on the barrel. I saw a rifle in June at the KRA that was very similar on Steve Henches table theat he attributed to Reedy. The thing that I find most interesting is the amount of drop that occurs in the stock. Any of the afore mentioned makers did not have the amount of drop this rifle has. My vote is Boyer.
Buck

Offline jdm

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »
[quote author=Don Getz .  I also
doubt that it was done by D. Boyer.....his stuff wasn't this good.  ....Don

 Don,
It's my opinion there was more than one D.Boyer.Perhaps father & son,brothers ? I think one was an earlier maker . He signed his guns in script and made a lot of swivels. See the one in the library. He made some nice rifles.  Sorry I'm not trying to get off topic. This rifle of Nate's is a fine gun from that area.     JIM
JIM

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Original rifle------- Pictures added 9/28/12
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2012, 06:20:34 PM »
This is a fun discussion. Lets hear some more opinions.