Question for Jim Kibler

[Long John]

Jim,

I have to compliment you on that absolutely amazing fowler on the Contemporary Maker site.  I'll never come close to that level of execution.

I have a question.  On the very ornate side plate and the very ornate trigger guard forward extension are these very complex parts let into the wood?  It appears that the thumb piece is let in and that is well beyond my current skill level.  But I can't fathom how one would be able to let in that side plate or the TG extension.  Could you tell me how you addressed those parts of that gun?

It is an awesome gun, a true master-work!

Thanks.

John Cholin

[Jim Kibler]

Inletting the parts wasn't too difficult from what I remember.  I filed a decent draft on the edges and then secured the parts in place.  The lock bolts held the sideplate and the other parts I probably clamped.  Since the profile was pretty complicated, I just used a few very narrow chisels or gouges to stab around the perimeter and outline the part.  On parts that are flat this works pretty well, but for curved surfaces it's a little more difficult.  Takes more fitting.  I don't recall if I did it on this gun or not, but I've also used a little heat before when fitting complex parts.  Just heated the parts a bit and fit in the cut inlet.  Repeat the process a few times along with perhaps trimming or scraping a little wood and the part goes in place pretty quickly.  This is of course after the inlet is cut very close to finished size  Don't know how hot the parts were, but they weren't heated that much.  For very complicated parts this works pretty well.  Not sure how traditional the method is.  With the low heat it really doesn't scorch the wood hardly at all.  Someone demonstrated this process on stocking high quality 19th century English guns a while back.  Guns where the locks look like they grew into the wood.  Now with this said, don't think you can burn parts in to fit them.  It's really not at all like this.  It's just a very small step in the end of the fitting process that makes things go a little faster at times.  For common parts, I really wouldn't consider a process like this.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

I've heard of this process, probably an English thing.

[G-Man]

Kit Reavenshear describes this process in one of his booklets.  But I was never clear on how exactly it was done.  Jim's description suggests use of more finesse than you get the impression of from Kit's description.

Guy

[Jim Kibler]

I kind of hesitated before mentioning the heat for fitting. It works, but you need to be careful and it is when the part is nearly fit anyway.  I wouldn't suggest using this method on most any ordinary circumstance.  I cringe at the thought of people trying to get a good fit on parts by "burning" them in.  As I said, I've used it ocasionally, but not too often and the only time is when a part is really complex.  I can't think of a time I would consider using it on a longrifle.

Jim

[Jerry V Lape]

Jim, when you heated the part, was it in contact with the stock as you heated it or was it brought to the stock after being heated?  I am having trouble understanding the mechanics involved as you said it is not a burning in process.  What is happening to the wood that makes for the fit? 

[Jim Kibler]

I shouldn't have mentioned this I guess  Yes, the parts are heated off the stock.  Yes there is a tiny amount of wood burning if you want to call it that.  I am imagining people now thinking they have an answer to their inletting troubles.  I can envision glowing parts, flames and smoke pouring from the stock and charred craters left behind.   The best advice is to probably not worry about this at all!  I may not have even used it on the fowler, I can't really remember for sure.  Using the part as a guide to stab around is very useful for these complex parts though and something good to remember.

Jim

[billd]

I can envision very ornate burn scars in palms and thumbs.   

Bill

[Acer Saccharum]

I think the ideal temp is one that will cause the wood to break down, but not actually char. I can imagine that maple would turn brown around the inlet. Walnut, it's already brown. 

[Long Ears]

[  I can envision glowing parts, flames and smoke pouring from the stock and charred craters left behind.]   Jim
[/quote]
LOL, good discription Jim! Can't wait to see how we fix this black hole. Bob

[BillPac]

Here is a picture of the tool I made to inlet the side plate during the fowler class Jim and Ian taught.

And here is a view of my side plate installed.  I created a small gap in a few spots because I tipped the tool instead of stabbing straight down.

It really was not that hard to do, gun number 3 for me.  I made the tool from a cement nail.
BillP

[Mark Elliott]

Music wire works really well for making small stabbing chisels.  You just grind the tip you want.  Also remember that the stabbing process compresses the wood along the edges of the inlet.   If you have a good draft on the piece, and carefully stab around the edge of the piece, it should pretty much just drop in.   Once inlet to depth,  you just wet the stock and the compressed wood then closes in tight around the part.   That is, assuming,  you haven't cut too much wood away from the perimeter.

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks for the comments and pictures pertaining to stabbing in around the perimenter of complex parts.  I might add that I do have a draft filed on the parts and do tend to lean in just ever so slightly.  Wetting does help close up any little gaps since the wood is often compressed a bit.

Jim

[smallpatch]

Billpac,

How about a little more detail on the little stamping chisel??

[Larry Luck]

(Not to preeempt Jim), but you might find this link to Gary Brumfield's site helpful.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/shopmadechisels.htm

"Gary's little stamping tool" (here his "stamping chisel") is pretty neat.  The variation I made is out of music wire, maybe 1/8 or so in a palm tool handle.

Works great.  For those who stab.  I've not tried it for wire inlay, but it's on my list.

Here's another link to Gary's site on relief carving, where you can see the effects of the stamping tool.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/images/relief.carving.for.web2.ppt#256,1,Relief Carving a Shenandoah Valley Rifle


Larry Luck

[Jim Kibler]

With regard to chisels for outlining the parts, I wouldn't bevel it on both sides as Gary does with his tool.  Think of this being used like a marking knife except it's pushed straight down in.  The idea is to get a decent outline then you can come back and deepen it if necessary.

[Long John]

Jim,

THANK YOU!  Your response is sure to help me, and I suspect many others.

At work I do a lot with the forest products industry.  Your heating strategy is actually supported by the chemistry of wood!  I should have thought of it myself but I needed your insight. 

Wood is held together by water molecules situated between adjacent cellulose and lignin molecules.  When you heat the wood to slightly above 212 F those water molecule links become movable.  This fact is used in making particleboard, medium density fiber board, Masonite(R), wood pellet fuel, paper, etc.  By using heat, not too hot, you are coaxing the wood to conform to the part.  BRILLIANT!

Thanks again.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Jerry V Lape]

  Jim, Now I think I understand the mechanics of the heating!  You are not burning in at all, sort of shrink fitting the material.  Heating stock wood to bend for drop and cast is probably a related procedure.  Makes sense.  Not charring wood, but warming it  so it can be moved a little.  Probably works best easing the edge of the tight inlet outward as the drafted edge of the metal piece wedges it aside.  Is that your observation? 

[Jim Kibler]

It really doesn't charr the wood so much, but does discolor it a little.  The draft does help keep things tight.  I guess it's something you'll have to experiment with if interested.   I want to reinforce that it's not a fix for good inletting practices.  I also don't think it is really that useful or appropriate for general longrifle work.  It's just something that ocasionally helps a bit for really complex shaped parts.  You might try to find the post from Jim Westberg where he discusses the process he was experimenting with for fitting 19th century British work.

Jim

[Mike Brooks]

It really doesn't charr the wood so much, but does discolor it a little.  The draft does help keep things tight.  I guess it's something you'll have to experiment with if interested.   I want to reinforce that it's not a fix for good inletting practices.  I also don't think it is really that useful or appropriate for general longrifle work.  It's just something that ocasionally helps a bit for really complex shaped parts.  You might try to find the post from Jim Westberg where he discusses the process he was experimenting with for fitting 19th century British work.

Jim

Dam....I was hoping to heat every thing to red hot and sort of wire everything to the stock blank all at once..... I guess that ain't going to work.

[davebozell]

Tied the stab knife last night.  Made one out of a rosehead nail I had around.  It worked great.  I did use the blunt tip shown in the powerpoint slides.  Takes a little longer since the head is so small, but for a newbie like me, it makes me go a little slower, which is probably a good thing.  Thanks for the great tip!

[Acer Saccharum]

Dam....I was hoping to heat every thing to red hot and sort of wire everything to the stock blank all at once..... I guess that ain't going to work.

Mike, just CHAIN everything in place until it cools, and you're good to go.

[westbj2]

Jim, a wonderful piece of work!  I found your comments on using heat to assist with detail fitting interesting and can see that you found a number of appropriate places to employ the technique. 
Not ready yet to assert that heat was used extensively by 19th century British stockers but close examination of period work suggests a striking similarity of finished outcome....some how they were 'moving' the last few thousanths of material resulting in a burnished finish and the absence of tool marks.  These stockers were highly skilled but I think you will agree that skill and a chisel alone cannot produce the quality of inlet finished with heat.  And in a lot less time!
Your side plate and front guard extension have all kinds of tiny corners, radii, and edges that must all fit in unison to allow removal while stocking and finishing because chipouts are not an option.
When I use the technique for final fitting, my guess is that the temperature of the material is in the range of 325-350 degrees upon contact with the wood.  If I get a bit heavy with the heat and any yellow color comes to the part, I let it cool, polish is back and start over.  Sometimes a couple of 'heats' are needed.
Jim Westberg

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim Westberg:

Why do you polish the part back? Is this so you can tell when you reach the yellow heat again? Steel parts, that is.

Next color is brown. Then purple. Without polishing back, you could be changing the temper, if any is present. Is that your concern?

[westbj2]

Tom,
If no color develops when heating steel parts, I can be fairly sure the temperature of the part is somewhere in the 350 range.  One of those hand held temperature indicators would be handy for consistency if one was working with brass or silver.  Normally, the steel parts subjected to heat are new, polished and not yet heat treated.
Perhaps an example would be helpful.  Lets use a lockplate.  Once you have inletted the plate and are happy with the fit it seems that there is always a bind somewhere where the plate resists either going in cleanly or comes out with a bit of resistance.  Sometimes you can see the problem area(s} along the inlet edge as 'burnished bumps' but the amount of material needed to be removed is minuscule and often irregular in shape. Heating the plate at this point and quickly putting it in place seems to be enough to move the few molecules of resistance.  Think of the process as a way to 'even out' an already good inletting job.
Next time you have the opportunity to remove the lock from a piece of good British work, get some good light and a loupe and have a look at the edges of the lockplate mortise.  You will see that both the vertical and horizontal edges have a distinct burnished look and there are no tool marks.  Did the oldtimers use this heating method?  I dont know........ but somehow their work closely resembles the effects of using heat.
The only other way to achieve this look and fit would be to steam the inlet edges and allow the wood to settle up against the lock plate as it cools and expels moisture.
Jim Westberg