Notching a breech face, playing with a pan…

[bgf]

Just a note, the flash hole can be covered by the edge of the frizzen. I have built guns like that intentionally to keep the touchhole covered and clear until fire in the pan.

You just don't want to see the touch hole on the side of the barrel when the frizzen is CLOSED. If that is the case, the lock is WAY TOO LOW.

I wish we had some pictures, because I'm starting to get worried there might be miscommunication.  The touch hole can go way down in the pan according to Pletch's testing, and still be fast; if it causes problems there is always material in pan/bolster that can be ground out a bit.  I WANT the TH covered by the frizzen pan cover when frizzen is closed!

[Acer Saccharum]

If the web is 5/16" then the gun is going to be quite fat vertically. AND the wood between rr and grip may be wafer thin.

Best to inlet the barrel deeper, as much as 1/8". It's a real pain, but it sounds like that would sweeten everything. (check your front lockbolt before getting too carried away.


I drill a 1/16 hole in the bottom flat of the inlet to check my web thickness.

[bgf]

Acer,
I wasn't trying to argue with you, just figure what is going on.  I have a hard time seeing a stock pre-inlet with 5/16" web.  On the other hand, I have had the "pleasure" of trying to get a barrel into a precarve where the barrel channel was far too small, especially on side and oblique flats, which held barrel up a lot until remedied.  I suspect there is something like that going on from his description. Mainly, I think pictures would help.

PS. The danger is of taking out wood unnecessarily at the bottom of the barrel channel, when that is not what is keeping the barrel held up.  Probably an elementary observation, but it has happened to some guy I know...

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Acer,
I wasn't trying to argue with you, just figure what is going on.  I have a hard time seeing a stock pre-inlet with 5/16" web.  On the other hand, I have had the "pleasure" of trying to get a barrel into a precarve where the barrel channel was far too small, especially on side and oblique flats, which held barrel up a lot until remedied.  I suspect there is something like that going on from his description. Mainly, I think pictures would help.

PS. The danger is of taking out wood unnecessarily at the bottom of the barrel channel, when that is not what is keeping the barrel held up.  Probably an elementary observation, but it has happened to some guy I know...

Hhhmmm I know that guy too..........

[PPatch]

You just don't want to see the touch hole on the side of the barrel when the frizzen is CLOSED. If that is the case, the lock is WAY TOO LOW.

In this situation that can't  happen Tom. I will go with the 1/4 inch liner, I will be able to install it immediately in front of the breech plug and lower on the flat. I now have a smige over a 16th inch of the bottom of the pan up the side of the barrel, is that enough? I could go lower in the channel.

dp

[PPatch]

Acer,
I wasn't trying to argue with you, just figure what is going on.  I have a hard time seeing a stock pre-inlet with 5/16" web.  On the other hand, I have had the "pleasure" of trying to get a barrel into a precarve where the barrel channel was far too small, especially on side and oblique flats, which held barrel up a lot until remedied.  I suspect there is something like that going on from his description. Mainly, I think pictures would help.

PS. The danger is of taking out wood unnecessarily at the bottom of the barrel channel, when that is not what is keeping the barrel held up.  Probably an elementary observation, but it has happened to some guy I know...

Hhhmmm I know that guy too..........

I removed a lot of wood on the obliques today Tim and am now showing a 16th inch below the lip of the pan.

dp

[Dennis Glazener]

I removed a lot of wood on the obliques today Tim and am now showing a 16th inch below the lip of the pan.

dp

If I understand correctly, it sounds like you have the problem licked. I believe you can probably use a 5/16 vent liner now.
Dennis

[PPatch]

I removed a lot of wood on the obliques today Tim and am now showing a 16th inch below the lip of the pan.

dp

If I understand correctly, it sounds like you have the problem licked. I believe you can probably use a 5/16 vent liner now.
Dennis

Hi Dennis;  I am going with  a 1/4 inch, that will allow the liner to position immediately in front of the breech plug and to move down the flat to line up with the top of the pan. Should be fine now. I could fudge in a 5/16 liner but would have less room to move down and the touch hole would be forward of center pan.

dp

Thank you.

[/quote]

[Acer Saccharum]

BGF, no argument here. I hope I didn't come across that way.

I'm trying to figure out what's going on. I mention things I do and have observed from my own work.

I am concerned with the 5/16 web between bbl and rr hole. That would make the gun a fattie, because you can't take too much wood off the outside without running into the rr hole. The guard finial inlet may break into the hole, been there done that.

[PPatch]

I am concerned with the 5/16 web between bbl and rr hole. That would make the gun a fattie, because you can't take too much wood off the outside without running into the rr hole. The guard finial inlet may break into the hole, been there done that.

Tom: I will double check that web thickness tomorrow - but right now I am pretty sure it is 5/16 inch. This morning I slimed a dowl rod and ran it back to the end of the rr channel; I had a 3/32sd hole in the channel and got my measurement by putting the tiny drill bit in the hole until it rested on top of the dowl. then marked the  bit with a chisel. The only variable was the thickness of the dowl after I scraped it, not much, I did not have to thin it too much to get it to seat.

dp

[Stophel]

5/16" is way, way, way too thick.  I drill a quarter inch "witness hole" to see where the rod is.  Can't really tell what's goin' on with a tiny little hole.  If the hole is bigger, you can tell exactly where the rod is.  If it's off center, you'll get a false reading with a tiny hole and a piece of wire as a feeler.  The hole is easily plugged later, if you wish.

Depending upon the barrel and what I'm going for, I like about 1/8th inch for a web right at the breech (with the barrel taper, it will be a hair more at the front lock bolt).  And usually about 3/16" at the muzzle, again, depending upon the barrel.

Are you using the Chambers "Early Germanic" lock?  I have always found this lock problematic in proper positioning, as the nose of the lockplate is pretty low, so the lock and front bolt have to be taken into account when positioning.

[PPatch]

5/16" is way, way, way too thick.  I drill a quarter inch "witness hole" to see where the rod is.  Can't really tell what's goin' on with a tiny little hole.  If the hole is bigger, you can tell exactly where the rod is.  If it's off center, you'll get a false reading with a tiny hole and a piece of wire as a feeler.  The hole is easily plugged later, if you wish.

Depending upon the barrel and what I'm going for, I like about 1/8th inch for a web right at the breech (with the barrel taper, it will be a hair more at the front lock bolt).  And usually about 3/16" at the muzzle, again, depending upon the barrel.

Are you using the Chambers "Early Germanic" lock?  I have always found this lock problematic in proper positioning, as the nose of the lockplate is pretty low, so the lock and front bolt have to be taken into account when positioning.

Yes Chris - Chambers Early G. I will do as you suggest and drill a larger hole in the morning and give it a good look-see. The lock mortise is pre-carved so I have about zero choice on where it goes.

Tanks!

dp

[PPatch]

Whoa up everyone

Remembered that I had that little drill bit on the work bench - retreved it and remeasured... Web is 7/32nd's NOT 5/16. I will double check that in the morning per Chris's idea of a larger witness hole.

Sorry, brain poot... Now, who called my Lil Darling fat! She is over in the corner crying her little touch hole out. Harrrumph!  

dp

[Acer Saccharum]

Mighta been me.....

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

dp, with the dimensions you provided, what else could you expect.

[Acer Saccharum]

Do these horizontal stripes make my gun look fat?

Seriously, you gotta count every 1/32" to maintain good architecture. A gonne needs to be fat in certain places, and not in others, and transition naturally in between. You don't want to have fat where it shouldn't be, it makes a gun look clunky. But this is an 'eye' thing, and a 'feel' thing that takes a while to become second nature. Fortunate are those who have access to originals.

The shaping is my all time favorite part of the build. It's also difficult for me, takes me a long time to find the right shape.

Sorry, I drifted off topic.

[Dphariss]

I’ve done my duty and combed the archives to naught, so, two questions please:

1. I have the barrel back where it belongs and printing black against the stock as it should. Therefore I have a very close idea where the touch hole must go if it is to end up center pan or close – The 3/8” diameter Chambers White Lighting liner however will hit the plug by about an 8th inch. The simple solution is to notch the breech face. Typically how is this done and what would it look like. I want to avoid a fowling trap and gas cutting issues. I am thinking too that going with a 1/4” dia. liner will put the hole directly in front of the breech plug, pretty much where it belongs or at least with very little notching required. I have a Rice B barrel, swamped that typically have the larger liner but I suppose the smaller will do(?).

2.  At this point also I can see that the bottom of the pan will come in at the very very bottom edge of the side flat, I am talking about a 64th until it shows the oblique and will obviously be cause for a powder trap behind the lock. I know it needs to go higher (how much?) but the lock mortise is pre-carved and must go where it lies. Looks like the only way is to take some wood out of the barrel channel but I couldn’t take very much and even If I do I will have very little web left and I can already tell that I will likely have to notch the barrel for the front lock screw.

I welcome your input gentlemen.

Dave

I would not drill a huge hole right at the face of the breech.
If a 1/4" won't work larger will not either.
I have made 10 x 32 liners that work fine. So the need for a 3/8" liner is between someones ears.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

If you must notch the plug,probably a cylindrical chain saw file
would be better than a three cornered type.

Bob Roller

[PPatch]

Mighta been me.....

She forgives you  

I doublechecked everything - The web is .230 thick, a little short of 1/4th inch, measured a bit out from the breech. I have approximately 3/16ths of wood below the ramrod channel.

The lip of the pan is up 1/16th on the side flat. The touch hole will be slightly forward of center pan but level with the top.

dp

[PPatch]

dp, with the dimensions you provided, what else could you expect.

Guy makes oneeee little slip Taylor and all of a sudden his girl is FAT.  I gently explained to her that it was my fault so things are cool for now. She has some growing to do, I don't believe I miss my mark though when I say she's gonna be a spitfire.

Dave

[JDK]

- The web is .230 thick, a little short of 1/8th inch, measured a bit out from the breech.

That's a little short of a 1/4" not an 1/8".  That's way to thick at the breech.  Keep going, J.D.

[PPatch]

- The web is .230 thick, a little short of 1/8th inch, measured a bit out from the breech.

That's a little short of a 1/4" not an 1/8".  That's way to thick at the breech.  Keep going, J.D.

You are correct and I stand corrected JDK.

dp

[PPatch]

General Delivery;
Thanks for all of your input guys. I believe I have a handle on the issues discussed and know where to go now. I've actually learned a lot chatting with you. Enjoying the build process.

Let's consider this thread closed.

Now, back to measuring school...  Old brains have a tendency to "drop out" just when you need them most.

dp