Antique cast brass patchboxes

[mountainman70]

"Evenin fellows;A while back,I purchased some antique muzzleloader parts-locks,buttplates,trigg guards,and some very interesting cast brass patchboxes.The pics show the cast in detail engraving,etc.Of the many original guns i have looked at over the years,I assumed-lol-the patchboxes were made from sheet brass like we use today.Imagine my surprise,and that of my mentor,when we looked at these.
I am throwing this out for some scholarly discussion.What do y'all think?Best regards,Dave

[JTR]

I have a rifle with pretty much the same patchbox, as the first one you show.
However, the brass is about .065 thick on mine, so probably cut out of sheet, even if a bit on the thick side.

As for cast boxes in general, other than the obviously early side opening boxes, I've generally thought the cast boxes of the type you show are probably late period copies of earlier made sheet brass ones.

I have no irrefutable proof one way or another though.
John

[jdm]

I have a side opening box on a Henry or John Young rifle ( not sure which.) It's made of cast brass. I think that's the only cast box I have.  JIM

[flintriflesmith]

"Evenin fellows;A while back,I purchased some antique muzzleloader parts-locks,buttplates,trigg guards,and some very interesting cast brass patchboxes.The pics show the cast in detail engraving,etc. Of the many original guns i have looked at over the years,I assumed-lol-the patchboxes were made from sheet brass like we use today.Imagine my surprise,and that of my mentor,when we looked at these.
I am throwing this out for some scholarly discussion.What do y'all think?Best regards,Dave

I was wondering what makes you think the engraving was cast in. To me it looks like these boxes were both used on rifles and probably engraved at the time of that use.
Gary

[Dphariss]

"Evenin fellows;A while back,I purchased some antique muzzleloader parts-locks,buttplates,trigg guards,and some very interesting cast brass patchboxes.The pics show the cast in detail engraving,etc. Of the many original guns i have looked at over the years,I assumed-lol-the patchboxes were made from sheet brass like we use today.Imagine my surprise,and that of my mentor,when we looked at these.
I am throwing this out for some scholarly discussion.What do y'all think?Best regards,Dave

I was wondering what makes you think the engraving was cast in. To me it looks like these boxes were both used on rifles and probably engraved at the time of that use.
Gary

I agree with Gary.

Dan

[JCKelly]

The only way to cast in engraving would be to investment cast (lost wax process) the parts. While investment casting is thousands of years old, chances are an investment cast box would be modern.

Betcha these parts are sand castings (antique) that have been cleaned up, as one would normally do with a sand casting. The undersides probably show a rougher finish than the side one sees.

[Dave B]

Here is another example of the cast box. This has a name cast into the lid of the patch box but I forgot what it was.

 

This was shortly after I picked this project up at a gun show four years ago. It was just a couple of months ago before I got around to checking the barrel and it was still loaded.

I found the butt stock and the  name  John P Moore is cast into the lid, the side plates as well as the lock side pate escutcheon. I assume this was the caster of the hard ware not the maker of the gun. Some one has a picture of a catalog showing all sorts of hardware pieces for guns. this particular pattern was one of those shown.

[RAT]

I don't know when rolling mills starting producing brass sheet as we think of it today, but from what I gather, sheet brass in the 18th century was typically cast. Why cast a sheet of brass and then fabricate the patchbox when you can just cast the box itself? Check out Eric Kettenburg's website. I believe he has a series of articles on cast brass boxes. He also wrote some articles for Muzzle Blasts on this topic.

[mountainman70]

Thanks for the exchange of info.I hope to someday get these on a long rifle.Some very interesting thoughts here.Thanks y'all.Dave

[awol]

 I believe they are old NY rifle boxes.  The first style you show, with the double-pierced finial, is known to have been used  on NY rifles, though not necessarily cast.  I'm thinking they may be from the very late flintlock period into the early percussion period.  There was a good deal of industry & trade going on in NY, esp. around the time of the Erie canal.  J.P.Moore was from NYC iirc.  The rifles shown by others may be from NY, esp. the caplock.

[oakridge]

John P. Moore was in business in New York from the 1820's until after the Civil War. He sold supplies such as brass and german silver rifle mountings to gunsmiths all over the country. I once had a southern made half-stock rifle mounted in plain german silver  that had a capbox with the name JOHN P. MOORE and NEW YORK cast on the under side of the lid. I feel certain that those that are engraved were done so by the gunmaker.

[mountainman70]

"Evenin fellows;A while back,I purchased some antique muzzleloader parts-locks,buttplates,trigg guards,and some very interesting cast brass patchboxes.The pics show the cast in detail engraving,etc.Of the many original guns i have looked at over the years,I assumed-lol-the patchboxes were made from sheet brass like we use today.Imagine my surprise,and that of my mentor,when we looked at these.Any idea as to what style/school of building the "wedding band" patchbox would be appropriate on?Thanks,Dave
I am throwing this out for some scholarly discussion.What do y'all think?Best regards,Dave

[mountainman70]

ANY IDEA AS TO WHAT THE PROPER SCHOOL OF BUILDING THE WEDDING BAND PBOX IS FOR?tHANKS,DAVE

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I have a rifle with a cast patchbox marked "Krider".

[cshirsch]

John P. Moore was in business in New York from the 1820's until after the Civil War. He sold supplies such as brass and german silver rifle mountings to gunsmiths all over the country. I once had a southern made half-stock rifle mounted in plain german silver  that had a capbox with the name JOHN P. MOORE and NEW YORK cast on the under side of the lid. I feel certain that those that are engraved were done so by the gunmaker.

You are correct