Author Topic: 24 hour epoxy ..  (Read 8129 times)

Offline elk killer

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24 hour epoxy ..
« on: October 12, 2012, 03:35:01 AM »
seems we all have a use here and there for a dab of epoxy..
any ideas where you can buy this anymore?
all i can find is the 5 minute stuff in those awful new containers,,,
used to be able to get the two SEPARATE tubes....
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Rootsy

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 04:24:28 AM »
You still can, it's called Acra-glas.  You can also get it in a "gel" form, which is the consistency of peanut butter.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 04:31:55 AM »
You're not going to find much of a selection in a hardware or big box store but there are several options of pot-life and packaging available from adhesive suppliers.  Typical pot-life times 5-7min; 20-30min; 60-90min; 70-100min & 120min.  Mixed viscosities from 3,500-120,000 plus paste and non-sag.  Packaging options often depend on how much you buy but toothpaste tubes are rare because they're so problematic and don't meet most DOT common-carrier shipping reg's without special packaging.  The most common packaging sizes are 50ml, 250ml & 600ml twin tubes which are the best for storage if you don't use it all at once.  Get a dispenser gun for the twin-tubes, squeeze out what you want then back the plunger off and cap the tubes, this prevents any air contact with the product.  If you're looking for something special, email me.
Mark
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Offline Long Ears

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 05:06:20 AM »
Mark, you can get this: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1038/Product/ACRAGLAS-GEL-reg- for 24 hr stuff with color. Sportsmans Warehouse or Larry's sell it. Woodcraft sells an Epoxy called System 3. It uses the same resin and you can buy 3 different speeds of hardener. Good stuff and you can buy several sizes. Bob

Offline cmac

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 05:13:43 AM »
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 05:16:51 AM by cmac »

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 07:58:12 AM »
Bob,
This http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/596455576/high_strength_epoxy_adhesive_gel_glue.html and some universal tint will save you a lot of money for the same ends.  The sales hype associated with most adhesives is second only to the modern gun rag infomercials they try to pass off as "articles".

Any adhesive is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain be that the adhesive or the substrate.  Despite the hideous sales-hype claims made by some, there are no universal resin blends that are suitable for all applications.  That should not be confused with the descriptive "surface insensitive" (SI) which merely means the adhesive properties are not "surface specific" or "surface selective" (SS) such that it will readily reject select surfaces.  Surface insensitivity does not by any means imply that the bonding strength will be equal or even similar on all surfaces and the adhesive ratings reflect the highest strength achieved, not the "minimum" or "average".  Same disclaimer applies to shear strength where it's typically rated on "prepared steel".  An example is a resin rated for 4,200 psi could easily fail with less than 70 psi on wood while a resin specifically formulated for use on wood may have a shear rating of just 2000 psi but it's shear rating on wood could easily exceed 500 psi thus what may appear to be an inferior product by outward appearance is actually a superior product for the specific application.  Likewise, nothing makes less sense than mixing Fe or AL with high expansion/contraction rates into a resin that has relatively little thermal related dimensional change, such makes the compound weaker, not stronger.  The resin blend must be compatible with the materials being joined just as one would not expect to achieve optimum results attempting to affix a tire patch with wood glue.  Just in common production resin blends there are roughly: 38 SI adhesive blends; 23 SS adhesive blends; 12 anchor blends; 17 filler/patch blends and more than 40 sealant/potting/isolation blends.
Mark
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eddillon

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 08:43:43 AM »
I am a firm believer in Brownell's Accra-Glas gel.  Colorants are available to match parts being epoxied.  I have used it for years as a bedding compound on modern bolt guns and for repairs on antiques.  It has never failed to do what I used it for.  Equal parts of resin and hardner and it is foolproof.  If there is anything close by that you don't want epoxied, be sure to use a release agent!!!

nchunter

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 10:19:08 PM »
I too hate the fast-cure epoxies.  Hobby Lobby has some of the long-cure stuff, as do some of the Ace Hardware Stores.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 11:22:24 PM »
Loctite sells a variety of epoxies that come in 2 tubes ranging from fast to extra time before they set up.
Commonly available in NAPA auto part stores.

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13/23/epxy_extra_b/overview/Loctite-Epoxy-Extra-Time-Pro.htm

You can type in your zip code on this page and they will give you the local supplier's info, if there is one.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:00:24 AM by T*O*F »
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Offline Long Ears

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 12:24:47 AM »

Bob,
This http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/596455576/high_strength_epoxy_adhesive_gel_glue.html and some universal tint will save you a lot of money for the same ends.  The sales hype associated with most adhesives is second only to the modern gun rag infomercials they try to pass off as "articles".

Any adhesive is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain be that the adhesive or the substrate.  Despite the hideous sales-hype claims made by some, there are no universal resin blends that are suitable for all applications.  That should not be confused with the descriptive "surface insensitive" (SI) which merely means the adhesive properties are not "surface specific" or "surface selective" (SS) such that it will readily reject select surfaces.  Surface insensitivity does not by any means imply that the bonding strength will be equal or even similar on all surfaces and the adhesive ratings reflect the highest strength achieved, not the "minimum" or "average".  Same disclaimer applies to shear strength where it's typically rated on "prepared steel".  An example is a resin rated for 4,200 psi could easily fail with less than 70 psi on wood while a resin specifically formulated for use on wood may have a shear rating of just 2000 psi but it's shear rating on wood could easily exceed 500 psi thus what may appear to be an inferior product by outward appearance is actually a superior product for the specific application.  Likewise, nothing makes less sense than mixing Fe or AL with high expansion/contraction rates into a resin that has relatively little thermal related dimensional change, such makes the compound weaker, not stronger.  The resin blend must be compatible with the materials being joined just as one would not expect to achieve optimum results attempting to affix a tire patch with wood glue.  Just in common production resin blends there are roughly: 38 SI adhesive blends; 23 SS adhesive blends; 12 anchor blends; 17 filler/patch blends and more than 40 sealant/potting/isolation blends.
Mark

Mark, I bet you have been either in the adhesive business or around it for a day or two. What you say is probably spot on. The problem lays with the dumb consumer, that would be me. We do not understand all of the properties of adhesive and like a lot of products on the market they're over inflated in price because of the name or who sells it. The link you sent to me is not worth much to me because I don't know what this product will glue. However if I go to Woodcraft and the epoxy is 10 times the price and the guy at the counter and the label says it will glue what I need I buy it. Also, most people only buy small amounts and freight is killing me anymore. Thanks for the info however, I will try to be more informed on my epoxy purchases in the future. Bob

Offline LRB

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 01:02:53 AM »
  Most ACE Hardware stores stock Devcon 2 Ton, long set epoxy in a 4 oz pack in plastic bottles, at less than $15.00. I use it and love it. In most cases it does not fully harden until the day after it's used, but most often whatever you have glued can be handled and worked on in 2/3 hours. It is thin enough to pour, and soaks into wood. At least just below the surface. I made a full tang 4'' bladed neck knife for my son with bone slab grips,  Devcon epoxied along with unpeened pins in the late ninties. It was lost in our flood of Sept 2008, and was found in Feb. 2009, still in moist ground. The grips are still tight to the tang. No separation whatsoever. That pretty much sold me on Devcon, although I had heard derogatory reports on it being no good for water resistance. 

Offline Tim Hamblen

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 02:11:56 PM »
While I agree that Acraglass is a very good product, it is not always readily available when I need it. If I have to order it, the price basically is doubled. Plus just about all 2 parts have a shelf life. That really drives the price up if you have to throw it away before using it all. I get the two ton slow set at my local Ace. Many years ago someone gave me a bunch of tubes of artist's oil colors. I can tint the epoxy just about any color I want if need be and it sets up just fine.

Offline elk killer

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 03:00:02 PM »
i tryed all the Ace places, to no avail,
all have just the fast drying kind, just simply wanted the 24 hr. kind.
with 2 separate tubes, just isnt available here,,tryed auto parts stores too..
i had bought the larger 2 bottles of expoxy,,used it once,,
5 days later the hardner was rock hard in the bottle, was sealed tight as well,,
didnt want to pay high price for something thats used very sparingly,
guess ill go back to pine pitch and spit.. ;D
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 03:22:17 PM by elk killer »
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 04:21:11 PM »
seems we all have a use here and there for a dab of epoxy..
any ideas where you can buy this anymore?
all i can find is the 5 minute stuff in those awful new containers,,,
used to be able to get the two SEPARATE tubes....

Acra-Glas gel from Brownells is very good and mixes 50-50. For any serious firearms purpose I would use this or original A-G but this is runny and harder to mix. Many gun stores carry it. Shiloh used to use Micro-Bed but it was known to not set hard. I despised the stuff and used A-G when I worked there. Fortunately I think its off the market SFAIK.
If color is not important JB weld is available at most Auto Parts stores.
Some cheap epoxies are junk. I bought some in  hobby store that was totally useless.
So I stick to A-G or JB. JB quick is pretty good I use it for RR tips and such but pin as well.
There are some wood resin based epoxies used for boat repair that seems to work well. I used some on my Airstream floor 10 years ago or so.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 04:54:44 PM »
I would buy Acra-Glas gel as just the gel.
Brownells
        081-015-004WB
        4 oz. ACRAGLAS GEL

The "Kit" costs way too much.

I put a strip or two of masking tap on the bench, put the epoxy on it with a stick or q-tip with the end broken off depending on how much I need to mix. Warm a little with a hair drier mix for about a minute or so till its uniform color and its ALL mixed.
Add color if needed while mixing.
Headache prevention...
I use paste floor wax as release agent. The stuff they sell with the kit is a waste of time. Light uniform coat of wax, wait a few minutes and repeat. Especially screws used in the assembly if any. If working around finished wood wax the area as well. The excess will pop right off the wood when set.
I used a lot of this stuff when making BPCR match rifles and never had a reason to cuss it. BUT if you screw up and let it bond things you don't want bonded, if you don't fill screw holes/pin holes ANY recess that could form a mechanical "lock" with wax, it can be bad, very, very bad. The worse I have had is having to heat screw head or ends with a heated (hot!!!) brass punch. Takes several applications but the heat will flow into the metal and liquify the wax. I never had to drill one out. If filled with wax even if the glue enters a pin hole etc the wax interferes with the epoxy to the point it has no strength.

Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 05:25:08 PM »
Mark, I bet you have been either in the adhesive business or around it for a day or two. What you say is probably spot on. The problem lays with the dumb consumer, that would be me. We do not understand all of the properties of adhesive and like a lot of products on the market they're over inflated in price because of the name or who sells it.

Yes and yes and what you said about inflated prices for nothing more than name/sales-hype is the point I was making.  The product I linked to is just a cheap imported generic epoxy resin ... the same stuff that is often repackaged, relabeled and sold at very health profit with a fancy name and/or good sales-hype.  The profit margin is also increased according to the amount and type fillers that are added ... but ... in some cases specific fillers are added to "specific resin formulations" that actually improve the properties of the cured resin for "specific applications".

There are common testing standards for resins depending upon their intended application which is why there's no magic bullet one-size-fits-all resin blend.  When using an epoxy resin on wood, the primary concerns are how deep the bond is and does the resin have enough give to allow for the normal dimensional changes of the wood.  When it comes to bonding, the more body the mixture has, the less it's going to penetrate the wood fibers which means the bond is limited to the surface only.  Combine the limited to no surface penetration with the fact that wood undergoes considerable dimensional changes while the epoxy is relatively stable and it's easy to see why there's so many bond failures over time.  Thus is why an epoxy intended for wood applications should have sufficient wetting properties for maximum penetration depth without suffering failure caused by a resin starved joint.  Common retail grade generic epoxy resins are all pretty much the same where even the low-viscosity versions have too much body to allow for a good penetration depth resulting in a resin-starved joint failure because the fillers create a barrier zone adjacent to the porous surface(s).  Most of the instructions you'll find for the filler-bodied epoxies will say to put a thin coat on end-grain and other porous surfaces to act as a primer coat, that's all well and good but the shear strength is still going to be isolated and therefore limited to the bond between the primer coat and surface of the substrate.  It's also worth noting that any re-coating be done in accordance with the parameters of the resin, most rigid-setting resins must be re-coated within a certain window of time which is typically just after the potlife window before it reaches its ultimate cure temperature; others can only be re-coated after it is fully cured and prepped with mechanical action.

Adding reinforcement to resins … The most common failure of resin-metal mixtures is caused by the residual stresses created by the thermal contraction differential between resin and metal particles upon cooling from the cure temperature and thermal cycling over time keeps eating away at the integrity of the matrix.  Metal  reinforcement can be utilized effectively but mixing resin and metals properly is beyond the capabilities of most DIY'ers, if the application calls for metal reinforcement it is best to purchase quality pre-mixed compound.  Another issue with DIY'er metal reinforcement is the likelihood of degradation caused by galvanic corrosion especially in those resins that are hygroscopic and/or prone to out-gassing as are most generic resins.  Various fiber options are available but the use of such must be correctly matched to the application which is rarely done for simply because of ignorance.  I've seen numerous comments of people using common fiberglass insulation thinking they're getting the same reinforcement properties as would be seen with woven fiberglass cloth but they're not.  The second thing is that long-fiber reinforcement materials must also be matched to the resin which must remain bend/twist flexible when cured just as the styrene resins and a low out-gassing resin must be utilized.  Vinyl and silica are used as fillers in most generic resins because they're cheap, neither benefits long-span reinforcement and both commonly make the resin more hygroscopic.  Balloon type fillers (includes all hollow and closed-cell materials) are intended only to reduce the mass of the resin and they greatly reduce the structural strength of the resin to the point where it's no longer suitable for structural applications.  Ceramics and oxides are the premium short-span reinforcing materials for rigid-set compounds because they don't create the thermal dimensional disparity and subsequent internal stresses and are immune to galvanic corrosion.  Short or chopped fibers are best in semi-rigid compounds.  Flocked cotton fiber is still one of the best choices especially for edge & corner reinforcement  in rigid or flexible resins with a 2:1 fiber/compound ratio being the standard.

Rigid setting resins are the poorest choice for most wood applications and an even poorer choice for applications comprising dissimilar substrates such wood to metal where there is disparity in dimensional cycling.  For example, quality all-weather wood glues are not rigid when cured, they're formulated to remain flexible so as to maintain joint strength despite the common dimensional cycling associated with variations in the ambient temperature and humidity.  Highly flexible Ultra-RVC epoxy bedding compound allows for dissimilar substrate disparity whereas rigid and semi-rigid compounds cannot with the results being seen as occasional fliers and POI shifting corresponding to the ambient and operational parameters.  The more rigid an epoxy compound used, the greater the stress created at the bond when the substrate undergoes dimensional changes.  Shrinkage is another consideration with rigid and semi-rigid compounds as the composition, film thickness and gelation temperature have a direct effect on the amount of shrinkage.  Many mfg's/sellers
 make seemingly impressive claims as to the amount of shrinkage but one must keep in mind that such claims are often based on test samples utilizing a bond-line thickness of just 0.002” so if you're filling a gap greater than 0.002”, the amount of shrinkage is increased accordingly.  Yet another issue is that of hidden air/gas pockets especially with heavy-body, paste and gel resins.

Colorants can be positive or negative depending upon how the colorant and compound interact, it never ceases to amaze me at what some people will use and adamantly claim “no ill effect” … I appreciate those claims because that's job security for me.  Someone gets a bad body & paint job on their car, they take it to a different shop to get it done right.  Few listen but I keep saying it, you want to color epoxy, do the surface only after it's fully cured and you'll save yourself a lot of problems.

A word of caution about misleading names, typically something along the lines of xxxxx-Poxy.  These are low-viscosity (thin/runny) resins advertised as “deep penetrating for lay-up and wood adhesion/lamination” - check the ingredients because more often than not these are styrene resins that are suitable only for non-structural applications because while they can be highly flexible to bending/twisting stress, they're brittle to shock loads.  These are the resins commonly used for fiberglass and foam fabrication but they can be utilized to stabilize wood if special pressure/vacuum application methods are utilized.

I know this got a little long-winded but there's a lot to the subject and what's here just barely scratches the surface.  My experience with epoxies started many years ago with industrial & commercial applications, the sales-hype does not a bit of good when you're wasting money, manpower and materials on re-work.
Mark
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Offline gusd

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 08:50:52 PM »
Smooth-on products  EA-40
gus

erastus

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Re: 24 hour epoxy ..
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 03:14:31 AM »

A good hobby shop should carry generic brand two part epoxy in 4 or 8 oz bottles. Use to use quite a bit when building gas powered model planes.