Author Topic: Flintlock and resistance to change  (Read 11480 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Flintlock and resistance to change
« on: October 12, 2012, 06:53:53 PM »
----- The flintlock was the ignition source of choice for 200 years and there will naturally be resistance to change.  ----
I took Jim's comment from another topic and wanted to reply but didn't want to steal the other threads subject. I just thought about this:

Mathew Gillespie was a prolific gunmaker in Henderson County NC. He was also a bear hunter. I have only seen one pistol made by the Gillespie family and its one that Mathew reportedly made for himself to use bear hunting. The 15" .54 caliber barrel is marked with his name and dated 1842 well into the percussion era. Mathew made many percussion rifles but for this personal project he selected a Golcher flintlock. This shows how much these old time gunmakers (and their customers) trusted the tried and true flintlock.

I have seen quite a few mountain rifles that appear to have been made in the 1850's-60's built with flintlocks. Change was sometimes slow in the southern mountains!

Dennis
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 07:14:48 PM »
I have a hard time even thinking about building a percussion gun.

We humans get on a certain path, and it's really hard to change.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 07:15:21 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Gene Carrell

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 08:41:04 PM »
Well, I started with percussion rifles and  am moving  gradually to flintlock. Am I in reverse?
Gene

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 09:13:16 PM »
If it ain't broke, don't fix it..

That and you become a slave to the provider of caps. We can still order rocks and have them delivered without a hazmat fee. I suspect price was a factor in the late flint/early percussion period also.

No, Gene; you're just following the progression that most of us take.

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 09:17:23 PM »
I was looking at some guns up in Gettysburg a few weeks ago and spotted a Lorenz musket that had been reconverted to flint lock post civil war. Come to find out that lots were reconverted to flintlock for sale to the Far East where percussion caps where not available.  

HardBall

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 09:29:32 PM »
Well, I started with percussion rifles and  am moving  gradually to flintlock. Am I in reverse?

No. I consider it forward progress.

I too started with caplocks and am fixing to build my first flinter, a Chambers kit. 

Offline PPatch

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 09:55:40 PM »
Put this in the hopper Dennis: In my lifetime I have witnessed the end of the coming out of isolation or transformation of these southern mountain people in north Georgia. WWI and WWII brought huge change in the area mainly because the men went out of the mountains both as conscripts and volunteers to fight and came back changed men possessing broader horizons. They did that in the American Civil War too, left the mountains, but I believe once they returned they were even less open to change, they wanted to be left alone. These two modern wars were what finally brought change to communities that had been not much changed socially since very early times. It is like these people came to the mountains, settled, and were forgotten for generations. They clung to their Scottish-Irish ways. The rest of the country got settled too, but then went on apace with development. Once established in the mountains however not a heck of a lot changed over time until the wars.

I came in at the end of WWII in Gilmer County Ga.,and grew up post war in the north Georgia Mountains. Small communities, towns, nestled near what roads existed and isolated homesteads sprinkled along the waterways was pretty much the way it was when I was a boy. Paved highways were few, as were gravel roads, and once off of them it was dirt all the way. Farming for food and a bit to sell or trade, excess corn to moonshine (everybody did it, my family did). Small businesses in the towns, a few cotton mills and thread mills scattered here and there, shops catering to the needs of those outside town who when they came to shop were just as likely to show up on Saturday transported by wagon and mule as a car. A few homes were serviced by electricity and gas even then, all in the small towns sited near the improved roads. Up in the higher elevations it was cabins, outhouses and wood stoves. Change was slow.

This may be one reason for the apparent resistance for change – essential isolation up until 70-90 years ago in parts of the Carolina and Georgia mountains. I don’t remember ever seeing a flintlock, or percussion gun when I was a boy, but I'll bet they were there. I did see lots of cartridge guns, grew up with them. A hunting gun was important to a family, hunting still a way of life as it remains today, although much changed.

dp
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Martyman

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 11:01:45 PM »
theres no magic in a percussion gun!

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 01:09:59 AM »
theres no magic in a percussion gun!
and it's harder to make caps than to make a flint.  the ground is _still_ littered with arrow points in some places 'round here... all the rocks on my ridge throw a spark.  

percussion caps was giving power and control to upstream manufacturing processes.  i would have "resisted" too.  (i'm still studying knapping).

also, think of being short on powder--or how "lightly" you could get by with priming the pan until your powder supply was renewed.  short on caps-no dividing them.  and 10# of powder would be useless if you were out of caps.

yes, percussion technology brought us the suppository repeaters, but the transitory stage is something i don't care to celebrate. 

NTTAWWT-if it fits yer biscuit.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:12:46 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 04:44:05 AM »
Older people especially, are sometimes very resistant to change.  Take my Great-Grandmother for example.  She had a normal washing machine and dryer, but prefered to use her old wringer washer and hang the clothes on the line.  She had a microwave oven, but rarely if ever used it.  She had a TV, but prefered to read instead.  She didn't have a phone until the end of her life, but rarely used it.  Guess some types of people get set in their ways and just content with how things have been.  I'm sure some can relate to this.  Makes you really question the benefit of progress.  Does it really make people any happier?   

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 06:03:48 AM »
Jim, did your grandmother switch over to percussion, or did she stick with the tried and true flint ignition?
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Offline mountainman70

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 06:32:37 AM »
 To PPatch,and all y'all-  here in the hills of WVa,we are 'bout the same as your folk down there,and I have a couple friends in upstate NY hills that tell me the same stories I grew up with,and heard repeated in your lovely mountains.It has all been a very good experience personally to have this kinship to mountaineers everywhere,and also the folks from small town,and big towns.I have found the folks in large cities I am drawn to are expatriate mountaineer folk,working where they need to ,so they and their loved ones "back home" can have a good life.Then,if we are blessed,we can retire and go HOME!!!Never forgetting the many friends we made along the way.
I have found it doesnt matter whether cotton mills in the south,coal mines here in my region,or factories in the rest of good ol USA or farms,etc,,we are all tied with the same cords.
Oh,btw,I favor flintlocks too,for the same reasons posted.My ol fat fingers have a time fitting them dadburn lil caps on them infernal nipples.I like bigger nips.
Took  Brother Gene antique fowler to range today,worked out initial load at 25yds,got some in black.Sure was fun.Had to remember to pick touchhole ,but got excellent ignition.Best regards.Dave  up on the mountain in Wva

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 06:36:33 AM »
Jim, did your grandmother switch over to percussion, or did she stick with the tried and true flint ignition?
grandma wasn't resisting (so much as), she was preserving her money.  Clothesline turns no meter, Wringerwasher is quite frugal with hot water and detergent (still in demand by homesteaders).  books don't consume batteries or turn meters, etc.

edited
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 08:18:13 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline satwel

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 05:40:00 PM »
I am not at all surprised that a flint lock would be the preferred ignition on a gun used for hunting dangerous game such as bear. In my casual observation of people shooting either side of me at matches, I see far more missfires with percussion guns than I see with flintlocks. When I first discovered this forum and started lurking on this board, one poster wrote "If God had intended for man to shoot percussion guns, he would have scattered caps all over the ground instead of pieces of flint." When I saw that, I knew I was in good company.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 11:58:08 PM »
Having spent the last 40 years facilitating change in organizations, whether to new technology or just new ways of doing things I have learned one thing the hard way.  People don't resist change..........they resist feeling out of control.............I put my keys on the counter on the bookshelf when I walk in the house... God help the person that moves them..... I have learned to make my flintlocks reliable, I trust them. why would I want to switch????  As I get older I resist being out of control of my money and other things because I am certainly out of control of the aging process.....oh I can influence it some, but I can't stop it...Abdominal surgery last spring made it plain........ So I want to feel in control of some things at least.......... DON'T mess with my Social Security!!!  :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 01:48:09 PM »
I have been a cartridge & cap shooter for many years, as I get older and grumpier, the thought of spending .10 cents per cap, enough is enough. Stick 'em where the sun don't shine.
Here in Canada, where powder is approaching $30 a pond, and caps are almost $10 a hundred, that comes to .40 cents a shot, and I have'nt included the cost of lead.
So using flint seems a lot more economical. If I could attach a string to my shot, I would. So that I could reuse the lead.
I have not looked at a modern fire arm in years.
Old Ford
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 02:44:39 PM »
What is a modern firearm??  If one has a flintlock or three or four ... what else could you possibly want??
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 03:14:29 PM »
Another one.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 03:45:18 PM »
Many people did not trust the percussion cap.
A great many American percussion guns were drum and nipple, a poor system at best and even some of the patent breeches were/are problematic.
Then there were variations in the caps which might effect accuracy.
As late as the 1840s westerners were telling people headed for California that the percussion was unreliable.
A GOOD flintlock is very reliable and sure fire.

Dan
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gunsports

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 08:38:29 PM »
When you're all nicely grown up, you'll switch from cartridge to muzzle guns. When you get wise, you'll shoot flinters ....

Offline G-Man

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 09:31:57 PM »
Old ways do tend to hang on - if I am not msistaken didn't HBC continue to offer Northwest guns in flint up into the late years of the 19th century?

Also - just a thought but maybe our baseline assumption for timing is a little off.  There has long been a prevailing sentiment in the literature that the 1830s were when percussion became the preferred ignition system - but perhaps this assumption is just wrong.  That is, rather than just a few old timers stubbornly set in their ways,  rather, perhaps most gunmakers did not start making percussion guns until later than we think.  I have seen some eye opening rifles in recent years - southern peices - signed and dated in the late 1840s and even later - in original flint coniditon.  I believe there are more Pennslyvania made guns by documented makers whose career dates can be firmly pinned down, than there are southern arms (which i am more familiar with) so I would be interested in what some of you guys more familiar with their work think about this.  How many firmly dated 1830s percussion longrifles do we really know of?  I do not know the answer.

So just like most types of longrifles perhaps in the past there has been a tendency to date many of the percussion-built rifles a little too early - maybe a number of the 1840-60 attributed guns are really more like 1850-1870.  And perhaps what some authors refer to as "the great conversion" en masse does not hold true for civilian rifles - you know - "if it anin't broke don't fix it" - maybe a lot of the conversions happened  when a flintlock finally needed a major repair and the only or easiest available parts were percussion - rather than out of some great desire for an improved ignition system.  Just a thought.

PPatch's point about the Civil War also is interesting - made me think of one other possible thing to conisder  - there were a couple of million guys who came back from the Civil War who had definitely just leanred how to shoot percussion guns if they did not know before  - - so perhaps the real driver for demand for percusiion did not happen till after the war, in part due to this. 


GM
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 09:45:04 PM by G-Man »

Offline Telgan

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 11:37:43 PM »
Well - We have a motto around our house - Just the two of us - that we like alot. Here it is - "Change is Bad". Hope you like it and have as much fun with it as we do.

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2012, 01:50:44 PM »
Good thought provoking points Guy! Look at all of the improvements made in a late flintlock mechanism. It took over 200 years to get there. When I look at history I see the further back I go, the less choices people had for most everyday objects. More modern times created more choices. Of coarse economics had a lot to do with this. Look at all of the choices we have had added just within our own lifespan. Today it takes me considerable time just to pick the right brand of breakfast cereal out of two full isles of the stuff! We also have the luxury of choosing just which flintlock to use for every project we are working on.  In 1840 Pittsburg PA, the hardware stores had for sale barrels of rifle barrels and shelves of gun furniture and gun locks, flint and percussion made here and overseas. In 1840 it was just like today, a gunsmith could buy all the parts he needed to build a fine longrifle. Many times he chose a flintlock.
Joel Hall

Offline DaveM

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2012, 07:37:32 PM »
Does anybody have documentable info on when an old "master" gunsmith, who was trained to make flintlocks, would have started to regularly make original percussion rifles?  for example, the ledger of a maker from the period?  Could it be that a good percentage of the high art guns were actually percussion to begin with, and reconverted?   

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2012, 03:47:57 AM »
One factor in the driving force for change is always economics. I am sure there were die hards who stuck with the flint guns but it was and still is cheaper to manufacture the percussion lock over the flint. There are two major components in the flintlock, i e the frizzen and it's spring that aren't required in a caplock. Both of these components require high quality steel and considerable skill to produce.
I was introduced to front stuffers with caplocks but am now firmly in the flint camp. They are just more fun to shoot and except in wet weather I believe they have less missfires.
If you ever get a chance to pick up a book called "44 Years in the Life of a Hunter" by Meshak Browning, read it. Fascinating autobiography of market hunter on the Maryland / Virginia border in the early 19th. century.
One of the stories he relates is about having a  close call with a wildcat. Because his flintlock rifle had gotten "out of order" he had borrowed his son's caplock and when trying to reload spilled all the caps out of the capbox into the snow.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA