Author Topic: the "odd" calibers  (Read 19470 times)

Offline WadePatton

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2012, 03:40:26 AM »
I've been getting custom Larry Callahan bag molds even for the standard calibers, because this allows me to use a bit heavier patch. I don't like using a ball starter and thin patches sometimes burn or tear.

Are there any ballistics test results on these odd size calibers?

That's what i mean about accepting larger is larger and smaller is smaller aspect of shooting round balls of lead.   There are no ballistic complications beyond burning powder in a tube.  No need to over think. Embrace the simplicity.

The correct answer is one (at least) of each, and some pistols too.

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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2012, 04:55:42 AM »
From a historical perspective it goes the other way. Measuring bore diameter in thousandths or even hundredths of an inch --- what we call caliber --- was not the common method. The bore diameter was reamed to fit a ball of a specific size.

That size was not in diameter! It was by weight. A rifle would be made to "carry" (use) a ball that weighed a specific amount --- not in ounces or grains --- but in "balls to the pound." A gun that shot a one ounce ball was a 16 bore or 16 balls to the pound. A .490 diameter ball that you might shoot out of a .50 bore would have in the period been known as 40 balls to the pound. A .36 ball was 100 balls to the pound, etc. I have seen a number of 19th century ball moulds marked with a number indicating the balls to the pound that it cast.

In some ways it makes more sense than modern caliber because it instantly told the period customer how many balls he could get from a pound of lead. Powder use was also proportionate to ball weight. There is zero period evidence of the ultra fine tuning of charges that modern target shooters do. Next time the 18th-century rifleman went to the store for powder he would have had a good chance that it came from a different supplier and all that fine charge adjustment would become have to be done again --- a waste of powder.

Gary
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 05:12:01 AM »
Gary, perhaps your observation listed above about balls per pound of lead would senve to give creedence to my theory that most LONG-hunters (1750-1780 Kentucky/Tenn) would have carried smaller cal. rifles to make the most of thier lead supply. Powder charges can be increased to increase velosity and impact. Powder packs lighter than lead.
Eric Smith

Offline Dphariss

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2012, 05:42:34 PM »
I've been getting custom Larry Callahan bag molds even for the standard calibers, because this allows me to use a bit heavier patch. I don't like using a ball starter and thin patches sometimes burn or tear.

Are there any ballistics test results on these odd size calibers?

In changing from a ball that is 40 to the pound to 16 to the pound there will be a relatively significant change in Ballistic C.  It will not be like comparing a blunt 200 gr .429 pistol bullet to a Very Low Drag 200 gr .308 rifle bullet.

From 100 to the pound to 40 to the pound where will be a change. From 50 to 40 to the pound there will be less and in this case is will only be useful from a practical standpoint with shooting matches someplace where its windy.
So the ballistics of a ball that it 38 to the pound compared to 40 to the pound is irrelevant.

Weight increases rapidly as the ball size increases.
According to
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.70&v2=2876.1
 .40 ball 96 gr. in pure lead, 72 to the pound.
 .50 weighs 188 gr.,  37 to the pound.
 .60 weighs  325 gr.,  21.5.
 .70 ball weights 517 gr., 13.5
 .80 ball weighs  771 gr.,  9 to the pound
 1 inch ball weighs 1506 gr.  4.6.
 1.25 ball  2941 gr 2.3 to the pound.

The increase in weight increases the Ballistic C. since sectional density increases. .40 ball has a SD of .086.  The .70 ball gives .151, almost identical to the 200 gr 44-40 bullet at 155. The old factory lead 44-40 bullet has a low BC as well as bullets go. But at the the typical BC  for the RB small changes, like from are not earth shaking. A high velocity 52 to the pound ball (.445") will be ball park to a high velocity 38 to the pound (.495") at 150 yards for most purposes.
SDs according to
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/density.htm?bw=96&bd=.4

Dan
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Offline hanshi

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 06:35:45 PM »
The idea of "wildcat" cartridges and odd ML bores has always intrigued me.  But realistically and deep down I know there is nothing a .52 will do that a .54 or even a .50 will accomplish.  That being said I truly wish my .45 was a shade larger so I could shoot .454 ball.
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2012, 12:46:44 AM »
Gary, perhaps your observation listed above about balls per pound of lead would senve to give creedence to my theory that most LONG-hunters (1750-1780 Kentucky/Tenn) would have carried smaller cal. rifles to make the most of thier lead supply. Powder charges can be increased to increase velosity and impact. Powder packs lighter than lead.

I believe that current research indicates that most of those hunters going on multi-day hunts traveled by horseback and lead a pack train to their base camp so they could pack out 100 pound bundles of dried hides. With the horses needed for the return trip from a successful hunt a few extra pounds of lead and powder does not seem like a big deal to me.
They were also killing elk and black bear and surely did not want to spend time tracking any wounded game.

Gary
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2012, 01:39:08 AM »
Gary, you are right about them using horses to pack in/ pack out. I have a question for you. You have done your fair share of hunting with flintlock rifles, I think. Do you think that a well placed shot from a .45 cal rifle can effectively bring down an elk or a black bear? Or even an eastern bison?
Eric Smith

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2012, 02:21:04 AM »
Quote
Do you think that a well placed shot from a .45 cal rifle can effectively bring down an elk or a black bear? Or even an eastern bison?
In the book that gives the story of the Plott bear hounds, one of the Plott men, forget his name right now, but he was a very famous black bear hunter in Western NC, used a 40 caliber percussion pistol to dispatch several hundred black bears in his hunting lifetime. I am no bear hunter but as I understand it the kill was made after the bear dogs had the bear at bay. Most shots were very close range. In my teen years I worked part time cutting meat in a slaughter house. The standard rifle used to dispatch the steers, cows, hogs that were brought in for slaughter were killed with a little short barreled 22 using 22 short cartridge. In the 2 years that I worked there, only one time did I see them have to shoot one more than once and that was an old wild cow that spooked just as the guy shot her.
Dennis
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2012, 02:30:22 AM »
Quote
I get the feeling that sometimes these odd calibers are a novelty, sort of like using an odd species of wood.  Gives something to talk about...  Of course not saying anythng is wrong with them either, though.
Some folks won't give a rifle with a 45 caliber barrel and second glance but let it be a 47 or 48 and they just drool over it. I guess its the thought of having something few others have ::) You just know that it will shoot so much better and then think of the bragging rights you will have ;D
Dennis
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2012, 09:34:15 PM »
Gary,...Do you think that a well placed shot from a .45 cal rifle can effectively bring down an elk or a black bear? Or even an eastern bison?
The key word is what do we mean by "effectively"? A lot of deer have been poached with .22 longrifles and as Dennis said, if the dogs are holding a bear at bay up a tree, you COULD kill it with a .40 Cal percussion pistol.
A modern hunter making a humane quick kill to harvest a game animal under actual field conditions is a completely different story! Pages have been written on this and it boils down to shot placement.
I have never shot anything bigger than a whitetail but I am of the "a bigger caliber gives more room for a small error in shot placement" school of thought. I know from experience that a tiny twig can deflect a round ball or a deer can move just as you squeeze off the shot.
Gary
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2012, 05:35:48 AM »
... You just know that it will shoot so much better and then think of the bragging rights you will have ;D
Dennis

believing that one* will perform better is often the last obstacle to actually performing better.   This is the basis of "visualization" exercises.

*oneself.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 06:46:29 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2012, 06:32:26 PM »
Gary,...Do you think that a well placed shot from a .45 cal rifle can effectively bring down an elk or a black bear? Or even an eastern bison?
The key word is what do we mean by "effectively"? A lot of deer have been poached with .22 longrifles and as Dennis said, if the dogs are holding a bear at bay up a tree, you COULD kill it with a .40 Cal percussion pistol.
A modern hunter making a humane quick kill to harvest a game animal under actual field conditions is a completely different story! Pages have been written on this and it boils down to shot placement.
I have never shot anything bigger than a whitetail but I am of the "a bigger caliber gives more room for a small error in shot placement" school of thought. I know from experience that a tiny twig can deflect a round ball or a deer can move just as you squeeze off the shot.
Gary

I am reasonably confident that deer will jump when the pan flashes on a flintlock if they are staring at you when the shot is made. I am sure it happened once and suspect another time as well. So critter movement is something to consider, things in the field may not go as they would on a rifle range. Bigger balls are always better for shooting critters (to a point). But we have to be careful to no look at this with 21st C. eyes and try to think 18th C. Unfortunately its impossible to get into people's heads at this late date.

Someone here has to know what lead sold for in 1770 or 1790.  What was the average income of the time?
Boone was constantly in debt it would seem.
Did this effect the choice of a rifle?
Hancock Taylor's rifle has all the needed features, is 52 caliber, now.  People today really seem to like 54-62 caliber Kentucky rifles but they are difficult to document at the time. When the writing of the time are taken into account the bore sizes shrink to around 50-52 for a maximum. There are many surviving rifles from the 1770s with bore sizes in the mid 40s.

We also have to remember that the rifles were not just used from hunting or defense. They were recreational. Rifle matches were popular everywhere until we became urbanized in the 20th C. So the rifles were shot more than people might think. The heavy barreled rifles of the 19th c. may have been used more for Beef and Turkey matches than for hunting. There are repeated references to rifle matches as recreation on the frontier and elsewhere. Would this effect caliber choice?  For the ranges generally shot, 50-60 yards from a rest seems to be common (many rifle matches in the 19th c. at least used rods as a unit of measure, 10 rods would be 53 yards), a rifle between 40 and 50 would be ideal.
This was form of rifle match was common into the 20th c. in some areas and never completely died out with ML shooters.
Schuetzen shooting became a major sport from before the Civil War with large prizes (by anyone's standards sometimes  in the 10s of thousands in todays dollars) for winners by the late 19th C. WW-I killed Schuetzen, a wonderful sport, it was seen as too "German". The ranges died out, the Schuetzen houses were converted or destroyed, we are lucky that we have one of the few survivors in MT still in use on a rifle range at Rocker, MT just west of Butte, set up by the "evil rich" Copper Kings.
The increased ubanization of America further killed off the recreational use of firearms. Demonizing firearms has accelerated this and has distorted many Americans ideas about firearms.

Dan
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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2012, 07:46:53 PM »
I think also you must consider the field conditions of the time. Gone are the enormous trees and small meadows.  The landscape of today is quite different.  I don't think most people can imagine what the terrain. looked like originally. This would have had an impact on caliber selection.

Offline WadePatton

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UPDATE REVISIT REVIVAL
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2014, 02:05:13 AM »
Note this is a thread revival.



Now that I have a custom caliber bbl by Charlie Burton, and a mould by Jeff Tanner. (well, not the same, but my point is...)

I have zero qualms about ordering my next FCI bbl in something non-standard and getting a brass mould to cast fodder for it.  

too early to guess how many balls per pound i'll need, but i'm leaning toward 90-92.  ;)

(depends a lot on how the next two work out- 30 and 40)


« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:06:13 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2014, 02:59:13 AM »
Larry does make a great custom mould in what ever you need,

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2014, 06:55:24 AM »
I am going to go out on a limb by saying that 250 yrs ago, every bore was custom. Each barrel was welded up from a strip of iron. The barrel ended up at whatever diam it reamed clean. Then the mold was made for it.

But now a days, we drill from the solid, and have tooling to make a specific hole diameter. To make an odd size caliber is actually custom work, and needs a whole new set of deep hole drill, and a set of reamers, and rifling head. You're talking hundreds of dollars in investment for an odd size. Probably you'd pay for all the tooling, as builders aren't going to make something the customer needs to find a custom mold for.

Times have changed and the technology along with them.

Might be of interest here.

There is an area outside of Reading now known as Mohnton.  Since the Rev War that area was noted for the large scale production of gun barrels.
In one of John Baird's books on the Hawken rifles he shows one with the barrel stamped: H Reeds Reading.  He misread the stamp.  It was H Deeds Reading.
Henry Deeds was married into the Pannabecker family who operated several barrel forges on the Wyomissing Creek where it runs through what is now Mohnton.  In the early 1800s, Henry Deeds bought a grist mill in Exeter Twp. close to what is now the Daniel Boone Homestead state park.  He converted the grist mill over to a boring mill.  The Pannabecker family would send their barrels to Henry who would then bore them out on his machinery.

The barrels were then sold as job lots of 1 dozen.  I thought it interesting that around 1835 a dozen, or more, of the Pannabecker/Deeds barrels were carted into Reading, PA.  Loaded onto a canal barge for the trip up the Union Canal to Lebanon then down to the Susquehanna River then up the Juniata River.  Then over the inclined portage and down into the Ohio River and finally end up at St. Louis.

The idea that all of those old ml barrels were made buy individual gunsmiths is not correct after a certain point in time.
Then I started to purchase books on the old metal industry.  There was an iron mine, smelter and furnaces only about 75 miles from St. Louis.  But using hematite iron ore precluded gun barrel quality wrought iron in that area.  The furnaces in Berks, Lancaster and Lebanon Counties usually used magnatite ore in their furnaces.  That could yield gun barrel grade wrought iron.

Mad Monk

Pvt. Lon Grifle

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2014, 10:24:54 AM »
I can offer that a close deer will jump when the flint hits the frizzen even if it was looking away from you.   Lon

Offline jerrywh

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2014, 06:31:21 PM »
 When I started it was very difficult to even get a barrel. I finally got one from Bill Large, I think, by mail order out of American Rifleman magazine. It was a 441 cal. When I finished the gun I didn't know what caliber it was so I called the guy and asked him. He said he just drilled them out and reamed them until the bore cleaned up and then rifled them. So whatever they came out that was it. He said to slug the barrel and find out. I could not buy a mold to fit so I had to learn to make a cherry round ball mold. That was in 1960. I still have the cherry.  I sold the gun to a cancer surgeon for $125.00. It took me a year to build it all  from scratch. The good old days weren't so good.
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kaintuck

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2014, 11:46:14 PM »
wade....charles will make you that REAL special bore...I asked him if he could make a heart shaped barrel once....kinda like a poly bore~only heart shaped....he said "sure, I'll make what ever your wallet can stand"....... ;D

standard sizes are easier to have cleaning tools, the balls etc.....most folks, including me...don't have a way to make balls........so, a standard size helps me and the folks ive built riffles for..... ;D

marc n tomtom

Offline WadePatton

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2014, 07:48:55 PM »
wade....charles will make you that REAL special bore...I asked him if he could make a heart shaped barrel once....kinda like a poly bore~only heart shaped....he said "sure, I'll make what ever your wallet can stand"....... ;D

There is _no_ extra charge for 30, 38, 44, 47, 52.  If the 30 i have in hand loads and shoots as awesome as it looks, I'll buy nothing but FCI bbls from now on.


standard sizes are easier to have cleaning tools, the balls etc.....most folks, including me...don't have a way to make balls........so, a standard size helps me and the folks ive built riffles for..... ;D
marc n tomtom
I clean with tow, which makes tool size irrelevant, so long as it roughly fits in the bore.  I do understand that some folks shouldn't play with hot metal (or sharp objects), but balls can be made anywhere there's a heat source and ventilation.  I like the old school practice of mould for every rifle.  What's a few dollars more when you've a grand or much more in a gun?

I never* shot factory suppositories, not going to shoot store-bought balls neither (so long as i'm able).  I bought two sizes of balls to learn this 54, and well, the 535's simply have to go into the melt.  So I bought a .530 mould, but a .527 or .532 would have been same price.  I need to slug these next two and get my moulds ordered eh.  

To each his very own!

Now back to my bench!   ;)



*never-not after the age of 19 or so when i got my hands on a press...exception of course for the rimfires.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:49:28 PM by WadePatton »
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kaintuck

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2014, 04:24:48 AM »
I'm no expert, but I asked tomtom what he has found to be a all round accurate smaller caliber, HE said a 40....so I had..cousin Charles send me one, 7/8" straight 42" i think....I'll mail anybody a box of wheel weights, If they'll mold me out a few balls....couple pounds?
I'll have it done in a month or so....and then I could see if tomtom knows what he's talking about.....

But then again, the old GM 50cal I have can do raggy on hole groups at 50yds...... ;D
Busting liter bottles at 100........

Marc n tomtom

Offline Buffaload

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2014, 01:32:40 AM »
Kaintuck
Its funny you mention a heart shaped bore.
There is an exquisite flintlock rifle in Buckingham Palace which features a heart shaped bore!  It is displayed next to some fine American longrifles, which are obviously "spoils of war".
I tried to get some info on these rifles as they are superb specimens but found it too difficult and abandoned the persuit.
Ed

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2014, 04:46:11 AM »
 I think we modern folk are a lot more focused on "standard" calibers than the old timers were. I have run across a lot of .47 cal. barrels over time, and alway thought they were .45's that had been freshened out. But I found a fairly unused rifle a few years ago, that was not only marked .47 cal. on the barrel, it actually was .47 cal., so obviously it was made in that caliber.

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Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: the "odd" calibers
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2014, 08:19:36 PM »
in the end they all still do the same job, its just individual preference.