Goose Shooting

[Feltwad]

I have not seen or read a thread in Black Powder Shooting on Goose shooting with a muzzle loading shotgun.
There for is it against the law to shoot geese with a muzzle loader  in the States?
Feltwad

[Jerry V Lape]

Not illegal that I know of but no lead shot is permitted so you need to find some bismuth which isn't particularly easy or cheap.

[axelp]

You are not limited to bismuth. ITX non-toxic shot is reputed to be safe for ml barrels and it is actually supposed to pattern better than lead.  You can check it out at www.tomboboutdoors.com and buy it at www.ballisticproducts.com

hope this helps

K

[Feltwad]

Thank you for the information has I had not read any  threads on goose shooting using muzzle loading smooth bore shotguns I though it was not allowed .Here in the UK we are allowed to shoot game and fowl with a muzzle loader in any bore size where has I understand 10 gauge is the biggest in the States.
I have enclosed three images of muzzle loading shotgun we are allowed to use from the big 2,4,6,8 Gauge
to a stand of  10 gauge.
Feltwad

Stand of original 10 gauge


The big bore 2,4,6,8.


Original Big Bore guns

[Long Ears]

Feltwad,

That is quite a collection, thanks for sharing them. I'm a shotgun fanatic for modern day high end over and unders and some well made European SXS. But this collection will rival most modern day collections. Bob

[Feltwad]

Bob
On the foreshore we can still use punt guns these fowling people are known has punt gunners ,in the States you called then market gunners Enclosed is an image of a punt  with an array of big bore fowling guns in the back ground
Feltwad

Pun Gun and punt

[Vomitus]

   The "no lead" thing really diddles us over here for migratory birds. I remember shooting geese over decoys with a 16 gauge and number six's. We wouldn't open up till the Canada's were in landing mode. When we jumped up,they'd almost stop in mid land mode to try a get back up.Easy targets,lol. This was with modern guns,but would be the same with a ML. Just getting back with a muzzle loader pelter after years of absence.Shot cartridge for years. Lots to learn(or remember,lol). Trap and skeet are about all we can use lead on here.

[Daryl]

We are limited to 10 bore max. as well, according to the "Federal" regulations.

[WadePatton]

We are limited to 10 bore max. as well, according to the "Federal" regulations.

goose unions worked the feds on that one.

great collection, thanks for sharing.  all my old waterfowler contacts tells me that for the first several years of "non-toxic" that ZERO game wardens wanted to see you cripple and maim and wound the fowl.  That what they _wanted_ to see was two boxes of "non-toxic" shot and then go on their way.  That was the good not-so-old days.  I'm sure by now they have replaced all the old guys with booksmart fellows who've never experienced the difference in a clean kill with lead. 

Glad i'm too far from a flyway to bother.  haven't loosed a load of shot in years.

[Daryl]

I don't shoot them either, any more.

[Feltwad]

Enclosed is an image of a 2 bore{gauge} bank gun or wall gun used for shooting  water fowl on the incoming tide. This is the biggest type of  shoulder gun to be used for fowling,it is a brute to handle and shakes your brains a bit
Feltwad

2 bore bank gun

[bob in the woods]

I use my New England fowling piece [ Chambers] in 10 bore, for geese, and ducks. Shot is non lead, made by myself with a Goose Bay work shop Ruperts shot maker.  It takes some getting used to, being a flintlock.
Last goose I got , I was actually going for the one ahead of the one that fell !!  Need to lead them a bit more 

[4ster]

Regarding the picture of the punt and punt gun: At first I thought it interesting to see trunnions on a gun that is meant to be fired from the shoulder.  A little googling came up with this:


Answered my question about how the punt and punt gun were used.

[Rifle]

I'd say to shoot geese with a muzzle-loader the longer the barrel the better to get some thing akin to a pattern. Minimum 36 inch barrel or barrels.
Some mentioned shooting geese with a Chambers built fowler in flintlock. If a person followed thru with the swing on the geese till the shot was hitting the geese would that quell the lead problem with a flinter? You know....keep the swing and get the thing. Is the problem related to being used to nitro and not the slower velocity of the black? I'd like to know the load chain used to shoot the geese. I'd like to know if the quality of a "Chambers" is worth the money they cost?
Lookin at those big bores in the pic above I must be right about the longer barrels being better.... seeing the length of the barrels on them is astounding. I read that an old competition with shot guns and lead shot was shot with barrels that could be longer than eight feet and the distance was 100 yards.
The problem I see with the muzzleloader shotguns for geese (or anything really) is the barrels are short for swinging ease and......the patterns blow from the wad behind and the wad in front of the shot give donute type patterns.
I did build a single barrel shotgun with a Melot barrel 36 inches long with modified choke and it got good patterns out to at least 35 yards. I shot a big turkey dead with one shot at 32 paces with it. That range the gun had wouldn't be good for geese though. Muzzle loader shotguns just can't pattern well without an unusually long barrel. The Pedersoli double I have with short barrels shoots terrible patterns no matter what I try in it.

[axelp]

[Feltwad]

Rifle
There are a couple of things that you say are not quite right.
First plastic wads never ,never use plastic wads in a muzzle loading shotgun they leave a coating of plastic on the bore wall which in turn causes barrel ripple  always stick to card and felt.I have been doing restoration of  original  muzzle loading shotguns for over 50 years and have seen many muzzle loading barrels ruined by using plastic wads.
Most original fowling guns of 10 gauge and bigger have a barrel length of 40 plus inches that was in the days that these guns were built black powder was not has strong has today and needed a long barrel to burn the powder.
As for range from a muzzle loader a 10 bore with a 40-42 inch barrel loaded with 4.1/2 drms of FFG to 1.3/4 of shot size 3  will kill geese at 45-50  .The big 4 and 6 gauge loaded with  7- 9 drms of Fg powderand 3-4 oz of shot size 3 will kill geese easly at 50- 60 yards
Punt guns with there long barrels would kill up too 70 yards at a sitting geese on a sand bank or on an inland  marsh
Feltwad

[WadePatton]

Enclosed is an image of a 2 bore{gauge} bank gun or wall gun used for shooting  water fowl on the incoming tide. This is the biggest type of  shoulder gun to be used for fowling,it is a brute to handle and shakes your brains a bit
Feltwad

that is the most awesomest shotgun i've ever seen.  i'd read of the 2 about 90 years ago in what-where-those, magazines? but i recall no illustrations.  thanks for sharing.  issat you holding the beast? 

[Feltwad]

Wade Patton

Yes that is me, These big guns along with the punt guns were {Tools Of The Trade}  and used in the Georgian and Victorian period  ,The Fowler's of those days made a living shooting fowl which they sold at market
Feltwad

[WadePatton]

Super, I have to share the pic.

Yes the article i read spoke of  "The Market Hunters/Gunners" and their massive guns and the massive flocks of days long gone.  Akin to reading the old stories of Africa back when it took the better part of a day for a herd (elephant IIRC) to pass by. 

Now back to the gun...would one man run that thing or did he have an assistant for loading?  Looks like a violation in two counties if you aren't careful how you point it.

[Feltwad]

It is a one man gun for loading . The name bank gun means that the gun was mainly used in the sand dunes on the foreshore .It was rested on the dune or the sea wall and when the incoming tide brought with it the flocks of small waders that fed along tide edge and when within range the gun was fired into the flock hoping to kill many.
Feltwad

[Rifle]

Feltwad, I have tried plastic shotcups made fer blackpowder and they do leave plastic behind in the barrels. They made no difference on the donut patterns I was getting so I gave that up. Never knew the plastic could ripple a barrel.
What do you know of the load chain the old timers used for those big duck guns? They wanted the pattern to be wide I'd guess but......not too wide.
I have a few ingenius things to try to improve my shotgun patterns and hope they won't be as stupid as the other ingenius ideas I've had on the subject.
Theory has it that a muzzleloading smooth bore should have patterns tighter than the cartridge shotguns because the muzzleloader shotgun has no forcing cone to deform the shot. The wads are the achiles heeel though. Wads in front and behind in a muzzleloader are less ideal than the wads in a cartridge that lets the shot free fly because there's no barrier of wad in front of the shot.
Anywhooooo.....the best way I know right now to improve the patterns is to use too much shot in the load chain. That must be what the old timers did with those big market hunter duck guns.

What load chain does the Goose hunter with the Chambers New Englad gun use? Didn't say or I didn't see it here somewhere.
I can't get U-Tube with this dial up I have. Well maybe if it had a whole day to load and....the connection somehow didn't disconnect.
I've had one single barrel shotgun muzzleloader with the 36 inch barrel  I used for awhile and three Pedersoli doubles a 10 ga. and a 12 ga. and a 12 ga, with the screw in chokes. They all thru wide patterns unless I overload them with the shot. The 12ga. with the fixed choke did the best. They have accounted for hundreds of rabbits. I never over loaded the rabbits with shot sos they was eatable. Did I spell that right?

[Feltwad]

Rifle
I have always found that to get a good pattern with a muzzleloading shotgun with true cylinder you need a volume load.I have shot  muzzle loading shotguns now for 63years and have always used a volume load.When it comes to the bore size over 12 bore then for the 4.6.8  i may up the powder load IF i am using the big 4 bore for goose flighting then I would load with  6.to 9 drms of Fg powder to 3-4oz of  number 3 shot, the method of loading  for these large bore is powder then 2 number 1/8 solid card wads  then the shot  then a 1/8 card wad , this load will kill geese up too 60 yards
 For the game guns in bore sizes of 12.14,16  I also use a volume load for the 12 and 14 I would use 2.3/4 drms of FFG  to 1.1/16 oz of number 5 shot, For the 16 bore it would be 2.1/2 drms of FFg powder to 1oz of number 5 shot.The method I use is powder 1 ,1/8 solid card wad  shot 1/16  solid card over shot wad..These loads are for  true cylinder guns and will kill game out too 35yards , forget about screw chokes and also jug chokes you do not need them stick too the original true cylinder
Feltwad

 2 number  1.1/2 inch bore punt guns