Restoration of English trade fowler forestock to origninal length

[Dave B]

Jame Roger asked me about my progress on a trade fowler I picked up off Ebay. I have not gotten far but it brought up a question I think I have an answer to but thought to ask the rest of the group about it.  How do you determine what was the original length with out having the original barrel?

This was my thought. If you have the middle rod pipe then you know that you can double that distance  from it to the entry pipe to give you the front rod pipe location and just add the accepted amount that the barrel will be out past that point.    Right?
What do you think?


the length of the remnant stock is 36" from the back of the barrel inlet to the broken section. The middle rod pipe inlet is 15" from the entry pipe and only 9" from the end of the stock break.

[James Wilson Everett]

Dave,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have in my collection an English trade gun with what appears to be a very similar sideplate, a dragon shape or outline that is engraved in a floral pattern.  The barrel in my example has been shortened.

Jim

[Dave B]

James,  What is the distance on yours  from the middle RR pipe to the entry pipe?

[James Rogers]

Dave,

Are measuring on centers from pipe to pipe or between the pipes? If the latter, could you provide the middle pipe length?

James

[Dave B]

James, I am measuring from the center  of the middle RR pipe  to the end of the entry pipe.

[Feltwad]

Dave
You will find that full stocked flintlocks the end of the stock varied and some stopped  half an inch from the muzzle , those that proceeded to the muzzle had a bulbous end for extra strength.I have enclosed images of originals that may be of some help
Feltwad

[rich pierce]

What's your calculated length?  Let me know if you need an original barrel, stretched, that is 46".

[Acer Saccharum]

This is from a coach gun, but similar architecture:

[Acer Saccharum]

Some guns had the stock cut back, and a bayonet lug added.

[Jim Kibler]

I think you are going to have to come up with an educated guess as to barrel length unless you can find similar guns for comparison.  Spacing of pipes, lugs etc. is not necessarily uniform or equal.  Without anything else to reference, it's a start though.

Jim

[James Rogers]

You beat me to it Jim. I believe based on measurement theory using our standards that this gun should have a 46-47" barrel but as Jim states, spacing differed between pipes and in the amount to muzzle. What we DO have is a plethora of historical records of guns of this type with FOUR FOOT barrels and that is what I would be looking at.
Sorry for the caps for emphasis but its easier than bold on my phone.

[Acer Saccharum]

Sorry for the caps for emphasis but its easier than bold on my phone.

I hope you're not driving while texting, James

[James Rogers]

I have a hard enough time just trying to operate the pbone. Probably cant even walk and text at the same time.

[Tommy Bruce]

Jame Roger asked me about my progress on a trade fowler I picked up off Ebay. I have not gotten far but it brought up a question I think I have an answer to but thought to ask the rest of the group about it.  How do you determine what was the original length with out having the original barrel?

This was my thought. If you have the middle rod pipe then you know that you can double that distance  from it to the entry pipe to give you the front rod pipe location and just add the accepted amount that the barrel will be out past that point.    Right?
What do you think?


the length of the remnant stock is 36" from the back of the barrel inlet to the broken section. The middle rod pipe inlet is 15" from the entry pipe and only 9" from the end of the stock break.

Dave, can you post some more pics of this trade fowler?  How long is the barrel? Is the piece dated by any chance?

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave says there is no barrel. 

Dave B

How do you determine what was the original length with out having the original barrel?

[James Rogers]

Tommy Bruce,

Push here
 http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612.0

[Tommy Bruce]

Thanks James.  Really cool find!!

[mattdog]

"This was my thought. If you have the middle rod pipe then you know that you can double that distance  from it to the entry pipe to give you the front rod pipe location and just add the accepted amount that the barrel will be out past that point.    Right?"

That is exactly what i would do.  I would add about four more inches from the forward pipe to the muzzle, rebated 1/4" +or- from the muzzle of the barrel.  Many trade guns were slimmed just before the muzzle to allow for a fat end of the rammer and so you can get ahold of it to remove it.  When all said and done your eye will see equal spacing which is not only correct but visually pleasing.

[James Wilson Everett]

Dave,

Here are some photos of an English trade gun I have which may be of some help to you in you restoration work.  Dimensions are:

English Trade Gun
LOA 52.25   LOP 13.25
Barrel LOA 37.18  Breech 1.22  Muzzle 0.72  Bore 0.56  Marked LONDON plus English proofs
Buttplate  H 4.75  W 1.75
Lockplate  H 1.18  L 6.25
Rear ramrod pipe to middle ramrod pipe  11.25 (this is the length of visible ramrod)
Middle ramrod pipe to front ramrod pipe  7.25  (this is the length of visible ramrod)









There are more photos of the brass mounts and the engraving, if you want me to post them, let me know.

A few notes.

1.  The barrel was shortened by about 6 inches or so, the front on the wood looks like it was cut with a hatchet. 
2.  The front ramrod pipe is copper, with obvious hammer marks.
3.  The sideplate outline is more usually engraved as a dragon, this one is floral.
4.  The ramrod and tip are certainly replacements.

Jim

[James Rogers]

There are more photos of the brass mounts and the engraving, if you want me to post them, let me know.

I'm not Dave but i sure would like to see them.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Me too!...

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here are photos of the brass fittings for the English trade gun.

[Dave B]

Hey great gun  Thanks for posting the photos. I will add them to my folder on English trade guns.

[mattdog]

This gun has two or three distinctive features that can help track it down.  The "floral" side plate, full round barrel, the flower enraved onthe triggger guard bow.  I found one in the Museum of the Fur Trade book "Encyclopedia of Trade Goods, Volum 1, Firearms" on page 296.

The flower on the trig. guard bow almost always means Ketland & Son.  Full round barrel is almost always a civilian market gun.  The floral sideplate isn't typical for a trade gun for the Indian Trade. 

James Hanson describes them as "A Ketland  fowler of the type apparently purchsed by the US OIT (Office of Indian Trade) as a substitute for the Northwest Gun."

"It has a 44 inch barrel, .64 caliber and weighs 6 pounds."

From the pictures we see that it has a flat unbridled lock that is pointed at the tail and says "T. Ketland & Co." marked on it.

The pictures aren't great but you can see that the tang screw goes down from the tang and threads into "something" whether a square nut or a trigger bar you can't tell.  This particular gun has an oval thumbpiece (brass) with initials P D engraved on it.  IMO, this means a white man gun.  After all what Indian has his initials cut into the thumb piece?   

[James Rogers]

The flower on the guard bow is not exclusive to Ketland manufacturing. It can be found on guns coming from London,Birmingham, Doncaster,etc.
IIRC Joe Puleo mentioned to me that rumor started quite some time ago.