Making parts using TIG or MIG?

[Acer Saccharum]

Anyone have experience using welding to fabricate or modify locks, fabbing up trigger guards, buttplates out of steel?

Sometimes I like to build up a lockplate, pan, fence, or change the shape of the cock. Also, I see southern iron mounted mountain rifles with iron furniture that could be welded up. ( I am too old to learn forge welding)

I have oxy-acetylene torches, but I am looking for a cleaner more predictable outcome, less scale and less heating of the part. I believe Cody uses MIG, which is inert gas shielded wire feed, and likes that a lot.  TIG is great, as long as you don't lose a piece the tungsten electrode in the weld.

[WadePatton]

first rule of TIG is to keep your T clean and out of the work.  TIG is the shiznit, but, I'm still limited to O/A.  and my gases are low.  I learned (re-learned it. actually had a section in class in high-school 100 years ago) O/A welding on my own, before i actually started brazing.

MIG is best in production applications.  I've used it, but never on a nice machine-always getting by with less.

control of the heat is paramount to good welding.  with O/A the proximity and angle of the torch is your fine control, with TIG you'll have a finger or foot control.  MIG/STICK--strike and GO and hope all is dialed in right because rate angle and gap is all that's left to manipulate.

and somebuddy changed all the "official" nomenclature it's all "GTAW" and $#@* like that now.

ALSO note for us part-time welder folks-that an associate of mine almost killed himself by using brake-clean to clean a part.  A pit held enough brake cleaner to react with the heat _and the argon_ to create a toxic gas (very small amount) that put him in the hospital for a few days and weeks in recovery.  be careful out there.

[louieparker]

Acer

Tig is a wonderful thing on clean metal ..But on antique gun parts, welding in pans and reshaping parts it gives me a fit.. I gave up welding in pans with tig . I usually had to go back over it with a gas welder..It's  probably just  me, but I can never get the old metal clean enough to weld properly.. My suggestion would also be Mig with solid wire and the gas shield..  The oxygen and acetylene torch with  tie wire for a rod works and finishes great. But sometimes the cleanup is difficult and the extra heat is a problem..  I would say MIG, but don't throw away your torch...Louie

[WadePatton]

( I am too old to learn forge welding)  

slight drift:
this guy says he's taking visitors...if i were only closer.  OLD GUYS RULE!

(blacksmith who will never retire)

http://jewishlumberjack.tumblr.com/post/34139288434

[smallpatch]

Tom,

I've used a wire feed welder MANY times to build up things I may have taken a little too much off of, add a little thickness, change the shape of trigger shoes, etc.  Works VERY well, and is super easy to control.

[Meteorman]

Tom,

I've used a wire feed welder MANY times to build up things I may have taken a little too much off of, add a little thickness, change the shape of trigger shoes, etc.  Works VERY well, and is super easy to control.

+1 
bought a little Hobart MIG buzzbox, little bit of practice on the settings, and it's saved my bacon a couple times already.. 
plugging misaligned holes for a re-do.
tried to cold bend a steel triggerguard and SNAP went the rail at a casting fault.  MIG to rescue. 
I advise the solid wire/gas set-up - much cleaner.
I have not fabbed my own TG yet, but I do plan on it.     
/m

[Dphariss]

Anyone have experience using welding to fabricate or modify locks, fabbing up trigger guards, buttplates out of steel?

Sometimes I like to build up a lockplate, pan, fence, or change the shape of the cock. Also, I see southern iron mounted mountain rifles with iron furniture that could be welded up. ( I am too old to learn forge welding)

I have oxy-acetylene torches, but I am looking for a cleaner more predictable outcome, less scale and less heating of the part. I believe Cody uses MIG, which is inert gas shielded wire feed, and likes that a lot.  TIG is great, as long as you don't lose a piece the tungsten electrode in the weld.

Hobart "Handler 135".








This is the "before"
Heavy percussion match rifle now flint.



This standing breech was two pieces welded together. Machined and fit the standing part then welded the tang to it.

This little Hobart wire welder seems to do really nice work with gas shielding.
I have successfully welded 1886 Win actions as well.
I also use it to build a "lump" then machine down when converting a single trigger to a single set, and a lot of other things.


Iron TGs



I think the current model is the Handler 145.

If it welds like my 135 I can recommend without reservation. Not good for really tiny parts, need a tig, but I love the thing.
Tig will sometimes put some tungsten in the weld and then its impossible to file.
 
Dan

[David Rase]

I have a double throated hammer that I am going to install on a Chambers late Ketland lock.  I will be welding up the tumbler hole in the hammer so I can retime it to the Chambers tumbler.  I will be using my trusty Air Products MIG welder for this job.
Dave

[Mark Elliott]

I would like a MIG welder but can't afford it.   I only have a forge so everything has to be done with that.   I have to use it  to forge, weld, braze, and (very shortly) cast.    I can do anything I need to do.   It does work best with wrought iron.  If,  I need a new plate or lock part,  I have to forge it from scratch.   I will pretend that I didn't read about the sacrilege of making iron mounts with a welder.   There is only one way to do that,  the way it was originally done.    Of course, you could pay me to do it.

[Long Ears]

Tom
  If you go with the MIG which I'm getting pretty handy with after a bit of practice, be sure and get the mixed shield gas. Argon and CO2, it is much cleaner with almost no spatter and 0 slag. I just patched a lock bolt hole in a lock that a guy really screwed up and it worked like a dream. The weld browned as well as the cast lock plate and I had no warpage problems. I had to build up some courage to try it but it worked well. Bob

[bgf]

I have a small (90A?) Harbor Freight flux-core wire welder that I bought to play around with small stuff; it cost less than $100 and works on 16g up to 3/16" pretty well if the settings are right.  Works amazingly well once you get the hang of it but you have to learn how to use it and protect against spatter, or else learn to love cleanup.  At the economical end of the spectrum, a small welder will pay for itself in just a few uses.  Think being able to weld back up a tang or lockplate versus buying a new one and starting over.  The flux core wire is indistinguishable (to me at least) from mild steel as far as finishing; I would like gas shielding option, though.  The same benefits could be had with a small stick welder, but it takes longer to learn.  I know cheap is never a popular option, but for the hobbyist who only uses the welder on small stuff a few times a year, there really is no need to go into the multi-thousand dollar rigs.  Dan's Hobart handler is a good example of more than adequate for hobby use and a handy size for many tasks.

That said, I am moving toward forge welding ultimately, for the authenticity, just need to finish the forge.  Also, a perfectly good alternative is riveting and brazing, which your torch or a forge will do.  So, I doubt you'll regret a welder if you don't get insane about what you spend, but be realistic about what you want to do with it and make sure there aren't better options first.

[David Rase]

I MIG with straight CO2.  Not quite as pretty of a weld when compared to Argon/CO2 but better penetration.  Got to file anyway.  As long as you keep a new tip in the nozzle it welds real nice.  Once the wire starts to oval out the tip the welds start to go downhill.  Tips are cheap.
David

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

I use a Hobart Beta MIG 250 welder with straight CO2 gas also. You will get better penetration but more spatter than with 25/75 mix or tri- mix gasses. I use anti spatter spray to control the sticking of spatter so the parts clean up real easily. If you machine the welds afterwards I have found that with straight CO2 you wil see almost zero porosity in the weld area as opposed to mixed gasses. CO2 does not work well with .023 wire and auto body sheet metal welding because of the greater penetration. The MIG and CO2 gas combo does a great job welding on bolt handles also. I use ER70S-6 .035 wire, it also color matches real well for bluing. Mark Poley

[snowdragon]

I've used welding to make, modify, or repair parts. The neatest thing I ever made was a trigger guard using flat stock and a wire feed.  With the wire feed, you can build up metal here and there, then shape contours that are normally found on cast parts. 

For shop fabbed parts, you should also have an oxy/acetelane set-up for bending the metal. Bill

[JCKelly]

Old Metal to me means wrought iron, not mild steel. Wrought iron is full of slag, at least 3% by weight. The slag itself is some mix of calcium silicate and iron oxide. Hard to get a decent weld, free of porosity, using a argon and/or CO2 sheilding.

Wonder if for OLD metal one might get a better job with Shielded Metal Arc, i.e. covered electrodes? The coating acts as a flux, which is helpful when odd slag and iron oxide is present. AC/DC coatings, used with Direct Current, are easiest to use. For normal welding one uses reverse polarity (electrode positive). Straight polarity gives lousey penetration, which might actually be what you want when welding wrought iron lock parts? I don't really know, just put this out there for the welders to think about.

Just wondering. Not a welder myself but do know what one must do to weld modern contaminated/scaled alloy.

For New metal y'all know more about it than I (well . . . a skilled TIG/GTAW/Heliarc welder is tops)

[Bentflint]

Tom
I have not had the need to change a lock where I had to add metal. When I do a TIG would be best if welding to it. If just adding a little here and there and the weld it self was enough I would used the MIG.

When making triger guards I heat, hammer, beat and file everything for finial fit and braze. The better fit I can get the least amount of brass shows when finished. Just file off all the brass you can see. If you can see it you don't need it.

The guards below were made this way starting with 1018 flat stock. A MIG could have been used to add the (lump?) at the front of the gaurd.

[Jim Kibler]

I've found this topic interesting.  Investment castings that were pulled directly from an original master offer a lot of possibilities, but there are often issues with them.  If care were taken to either build up the original in "problem areas" or add wax to the waxes that would be the best scenario.  This doesn't often happen, though.  So we're left with trying to fix a cast steel part.  I've had tig welding done in the past and it's generally worked out okay.  My biggest issue with the process is if material is robbed from the base material at the edge of the weld.  If this happens the part has to be cut down further.  So my question is this.  Is MIG or TIG better or worse in this regard?  Also, I assume for small section size, MIG may over heat or melt the part.  Is this correct?  I would like to get a welder in time, but also want to make the best choice.

[Long Ears]

In my experience I stay completely away from any electronics or motor driven equipment from HF. Getting Tech support and parts is less than a pleasent experience. I highly suggest buying your welder MIG or TIG and all of your supplies from a Miller or Lincoln dealer. Or at least purchase one of these brands used. Then you can get quality supplies, parts and support for your investment. One little electronic malfunction of either the TIG or MIG machine and you may be replacing your lock. Or the repair may be quite an undertaking. Bob

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

Looseing material around the weld area shouldn't be a problem with TIG with proper torch and filler metal manipulation. I worked in a shop years ago that made and repaired plastic injection molding dies. I've seen very delicate areas of a mold TIG welded, ground and polished back to the original profile with no trace of a weld visible and no change in dimension. I can TIG weld but I'm not that good. My issue with welding carbon steel with TIG is, that on smaller sections that must be welded all the way around , as in a bolt handle for example, is that scale forms on the opposite side of the part as you weld. That must be removed to keep from getting porosity in the weld. So, its weld one side and bead blast the scale, weld another side and bead blast again until you have welded all around and built the area up sufficiently to machine.
 One of the greatest inventions for me in welding small parts is the auto-darkening helmet. I can see that everything is right were I want it to be the moment I strike an arc. Mark Poley

[Long Ears]

I totally agree with the auto lens but what is equally as great is the bifocal inside of the auto lens. Life is good. Bob

[Dphariss]

I've found this topic interesting.  Investment castings that were pulled directly from an original master offer a lot of possibilities, but there are often issues with them.  If care were taken to either build up the original in "problem areas" or add wax to the waxes that would be the best scenario.  This doesn't often happen, though.  So we're left with trying to fix a cast steel part.  I've had tig welding done in the past and it's generally worked out okay.  My biggest issue with the process is if material is robbed from the base material at the edge of the weld.  If this happens the part has to be cut down further.  So my question is this.  Is MIG or TIG better or worse in this regard?  Also, I assume for small section size, MIG may over heat or melt the part.  Is this correct?  I would like to get a welder in time, but also want to make the best choice.

Its necessary to add enough metal to make up for it. To make the flat plate FL on the heavy rifle above I had to lay a bead along all the bevels not filled by increasing the plate size.
So metal has to be added until the part can be filed to the proper contour. It always better to have a little too much than a little too little.
I have been using the Hobart without issue for quite some time, 10 years maybe, the problems I have had have been my learning how to weld with it. I use  the argon mix gas and do not have porosity problems IF I use enough heat. I have had problems with this but usually related to forgetting to purge or turn on the gas.
I am NOT a trained welder being entirely self taught. I can and have used a Tig but for most work I do this wire welder has it all over one especially when the price is factored in.
I have also welded some 1850-60s era parts and don't recommend it, can be a real nightmare welding parts made pre-1870.

Dan

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

+1 one on the bifocal lense, definately a necessity now. I agree with Dan you can keep building up the area with a MIG so you don't have any low spots around the weld. When you do find the ocasional pin hole in filing or machining the weld it is easy to grind it out and "touch up" the area with a MIG.
 Mark Poley

[davec2]

I have an old Miller combination TIG / stick weld machine and would not be without the TIG capability.  In addition to being able to weld almost any weldable material, or combination of materials, I use it for TIG brazing as well.  I use it in my aerospace business as well as for gunsmithing.  As far as heat control goes, I have seen a better welder with a newer TIG machine weld a cut soda can back together without blowing any holes through the material.  I can never get that same type of control with MIG.  (I use MIG for larger welding jobs but never in gun parts.  Just my preference.)

[Dphariss]

It would be impossible to weld pits in 1850s/60s Sharps lockplate or receiver with a MIG. This requires a TIG and some practice and understanding of the material. Doing significant welding on these is impossible to do easily due to the amount of inclusions in the iron. But they  can be welded but it usually takes several tries, then polished down and the individual pits, if not too bad filled with a small blob of steel and that careful TIG heat control to prevent the fizzies.
Fine work is about impossible with the MIG, parts like sear faces on Colt SAA triggers. TIG will do these.
A MIG, with its limitations, is still very handy and I was using mine again today on a part I cut down too far.  Casting flaws on cocks, lock plates etc. Making front lock sections for a swivel breech. So long as its clean modern steel.

Dan

[Hungry Horse]

I have always had problems with metal finishes matching, after welding on gun parts. How do you guys get around this problem?

                      Hungry Horse