Author Topic: What material is this patch box made from  (Read 7466 times)

Offline Dave B

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What material is this patch box made from
« on: October 28, 2012, 08:09:43 PM »
The Johnathan Gross Iron/brass mounted rifle on the contemporary makers site has me wondering if the box is brass or copper. What do you think. The other brass parts are very clear/clean by comparison. Maybe they are a restoration hence much cleaner vs the patch box. Its a great example is some respects but atypical in some.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-10-27T07:00:00-04:00 You will need to scroll down to the bottom of that section to find it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:12:18 PM by Dave B »
Dave Blaisdell

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 08:25:29 PM »
It's very difficult to tell from the pictures, but I'm going to guess that by the appearance of the knuckles of the hinge, and the difference in colour between the screw heads and the head of the box, it's of brass.
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Offline mark esterly

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 08:48:31 PM »
i'd say brass also.  my brass flash guard looked just like that 'til i cleaned it
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Offline JTR

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 09:35:22 PM »
Looks like old brass to me.

John
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 10:20:00 PM »
Made of brass.
Dick

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 11:53:35 PM »
It may be noted, and I am sure someone on this forum has seen this as well, that many early brass items, and rifle furniture, had a much greater copper content in the past than it does today. I myself own some 1850's era rifle fittings that have a distinct copper redness to them. 


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BGC

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 02:39:46 AM »
The patch box is brass. 

The red tinted brass is commonly known around this area as "red brass".

Offline WElliott

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 03:36:57 AM »
Copper was often used in the South, because of availability.  I have observed that brass cast in the South, particularly in the more rural areas, sometimes included a higher portion of copper and a lower zinc content, thus giving it a reddish cast. 
Wayne Elliott

Offline G-Man

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 03:03:59 PM »
Re-used (recast) brass will tend to lose zinc changing the composition and yielding the different color.  I too have seen a number of sets of gun mounts on southern pieces where it looked like this happened. I don't think that they were necessarily melting down candle sticks or anything like that, but rather I suspect some of these guys in the back country - including thos who worked mostly in iron would re-use every scarp of brass fom the casting tree and each time it got re-melted it lost zinc.  Just a theory.

Guy

Offline WElliott

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 04:56:32 AM »
Your theory makes sense, Guy.
Wayne Elliott

JoeG

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 05:59:59 AM »
I've seen a leman trade rifle with a red brass  entry pipe

Offline JCKelly

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »
In MODERN terminology "Red Brass" means something with a nominal 85% copper, 15% zinc. It does have a reddish cast, as opposed to the cartridge brass we all use. Red brass is good in plumbing fixtures, with more than 15% zinc the zinc tends to leach out after some years in tap water.

The "brass" used for US Military gun hardware, both horse pistols and Colt revolvers, was somewhere around 78% copper 18%zinc 3% tin, with just under 1% lead for castability. It looked about like modern brass.

Eventually 19th Century Guys learned that the maximum strength, and minimum cost, brass was something using 70% copper 30% zinc. Practically speaking that is about as much zinc as one can add to copper without making a brittle alloy (e.g. Muntz metal, 60%copper 40% zinc)  So today when you buy brass, also called C260 (cartridge brass) or C360 (leaded, free-machining brass) you (usually) get something with about 30% zinc.

When it is new. Ah, but some corrosive environments can leach out some of the zinc, leaving your brass with a reddish cast. My old cat with an upset stomach taught me that, leaving reddish pitted areas on the lid of an antique brass charcoal warmer. In general, when brass corrodes it looses zinc from the surface, leaving a reddish color.

I suppose if you want your brass hardware to look really old or Southern mountain style, you should search out some red brass, the (seldom used) specification being UNS  C23030. I've bought free-machining brass bar, round and flat, from metalsonline. Think they have red brass pipe, but I personally do not know where to buy Red Brass sheet.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 08:03:21 PM »
Most jeweler supply houses sell red brass in sheets - Rio Grande and Santa Fe Jewler's Supply are just two that I have purchased it from.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enUS476US476&q=SHEET+RED+BRASS
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Offline Dave B

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 08:33:02 AM »
great information guys. I didn't know there was such an animal as red brass.
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Offline mountainman70

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 12:26:53 AM »
I have a late percussion patch/capbox on the remains of a small maple buttstock,along with buttplate,and the lid of box appeared to be copper,even to the point of looking like an overlay.Upon cleaning with brass cleaner,it is brass,for sure,but still has a red cast insid,as does buttplate.Dave

Offline JCKelly

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Re: What material is this patch box made from
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2012, 04:50:14 AM »
Thanks. I've dealt with Rio Grande for jeweller's files, hadn't looked to them for red brass (C230).

One place said they handle red brass but then listed the chemistry as the usual cartirdge brass (C260).

Rio G. are pretty serious about describing their products accurately, even tell country of origin for their files. E.g. Switzerland, Portugal or China.