Author Topic: Mainspring design  (Read 11236 times)

Offline smart dog

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Mainspring design
« on: November 05, 2012, 04:08:06 AM »
Hi Folks,
I started this thread as a result of a discussion of springs on another thread.  I don't want that thread to be distracted from the original poster's purpose so I thought we could move the spring discussion here.  It started as a discussion about how to avoid having mainsprings and their mortices breaking into barrel channels.  I posted the following picture of a lock I built and for which I made springs. 



I made the springs such that the upper leaf was positioned low so that it did not break into the barrel channel.  It is a very small lock and the barrel is 1" at the breech so clearance was an issue.  The open bend was necessary so that at full cock the lower leaf is pointed straight at the stirrup (no bend) but also clears the upper leaf.  This was by design.  Bob Roller responded that he would never make a mainspring with such an open bend because he was taught they would break more easily.  I don't dispute that, however, my lock is the best performing pistol lock I've ever experienced partially because the mainspring works exactly as I intended.  It is heavy in the beginning, light at full cock, and feels whippy and oily.My purpose for this thread is to discuss mainspring design and understand what constitutes good design from the standpoint of function and reliability.  Most high quality original guns from England that I examined over the years have tight, pinched bends as Bob describes and I suspect there are good reasons for that.  What are they?  If they break less often, then please tell me why.  Moreover, some have lower leaves that bend upward at full cock and some are straight.  Is that important?

dave
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 04:19:16 AM »
One reason for the tighter radius on the bend is it drops the widest point of the spring lower relative to the barrel.  The upper leaf typically narrows up a bit as it approaches the bolster of the lock, which provides for clearance with the barrrel.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2012, 04:36:33 AM »
I suspect that the large open bend is to accommodate the technology of CASTING the spring. The tight bend is seen in FORGED springs.

In naive layman's terms:
When a forged spring is loaded up, the lower leaf may actually contact the upper, relieving the bend from flexing.

In a cast spring, the bend is often where the part is gated, so the 'elbow' is often very thick, and does not flex much at all. The spring in the lock above looks like it would flex at the elbow, as well as the arms. But I got no opinion on that, I'm no spring engineer.
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Offline bgf

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2012, 04:38:34 AM »
One guess about the tight bend ("v")would be that it effectively prevents the secton of the bend under tension from flexing whereas with an open bend ("u") the entire "joint" flexes, especially where it is under the most pressure from the two legs of the spring.  Just a guess.  I bet it was more important in the days of springs hand-forged from sometimes less than perfect material and that yours will last a good long time if it hasn't broken yet.

PS. Acer types faster, but sometimes its OK to say the same thing more than one way, I hope...

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 05:00:44 AM »
Guys,

The mainsprings I make for my locks have a much tighter bend than this example.  But thinking about it, I don't know why!  The frizzen springs I make with a much more rounded bend.  Not that this is better or not, just the way they turn out.

Jim

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 05:05:39 AM »
It may be a little easier to mold a cast spring with a larger radius, but a relatively tight one is possible.  Guess what I am saying is that a tighter radius spring is found on some production locks.  As far as a tighter radius allowing for the leaves of the spring to touch, I'm not so sure about this.  I've not noticed this on the ones I've made.  Also to be fair, there is a range found on original work, though a very large radius isn't common.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 08:14:02 AM »
If I had made that lock,the upper limb of the spring would be longer and the V bend
would be much lower and the lower limb would be preloaded to extend about 1/8" below
the stirrup with the tumbler rotated so as to extend as far down as it can go below the
lock plate.I have had a LOT of practice at this and the results seem to speak for themslves.
Results are results and if that lock,which is good looking performs well then the method
used to attain that level of performance also speaks for itself. What material did
you use to make this spring??

Bob Roller

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 08:15:38 AM »
I have been forging my springs for the better part of 40 years, which results in a tight (small radius) bend.   Given that this is the easiest way to do it, I have never had a problem with that design, and no reason to think I should be doing it another way; I have never thought about a small bend vs large bend.   However,  going back to my deformables class many many years ago,  I believe a larger radius bend would create greater torsion forces and lower tension and compression forces on the bend as opposed to the small radius bend.   The small bend would give you higher compression and tension forces at the bend and lower torsion.   What that means to me is that a small bend will result in a more powerful spring and one that is more likely to break as opposed to a large radius bend.   I think the likelihood that a spring will break has more to do about the quality of the steel,  not providing a fault to precipitate a failure; ie.  polish the bend (inside and out) to remove scratches, and heat treat evenly and to the correct hardness/temperature.   I am sure if my analysis is wrong, Jim (Kibler and Chambers :D) will let me know.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 09:29:36 AM »
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the response.  It is 1075 steel quenched in 1/2 inch of transmission fluid floating on water.  Then tempered in an electric burn out oven at 710 degrees for 1 hour and cooled in the oven.  Based on info from Wick Ellerbe, I will use canola oil as a quench for 10x steel rather than the ATF on water.  Ten x seems to need a quick quench to harden properly.

dave
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 09:32:46 AM by smart dog »
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westbj2

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 02:10:51 PM »
The photos below of mid 19th century British work reflect an evolution of lock design, geometry and spring configuration that began much earlier in Twigg's era which are quite similar in design. The sophistication of Twigg and a few others early on seems to have occurred in just a generation or two of time.  I wonder who the genius designer actually was.
Notice the downward angular configuration of the upper limb, the tight bend resulting in a minimal overall height in that area, and the position of the spring relative to the bottom of the lock plate.
With regard to the "wide bend" spring variation.  This is speculation only......perhaps it is the result of the lockmaking trade attempting to simplify spring making by shaping the bend around a mandrel instead of a more labor intensive forging of the bend.

Below a lock by Stanton





Another by Brazier



Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2012, 02:54:54 PM »
These are the kind of springs I like to make and look how low they are in the lock
and make it very hard to invade the barrel channel. I know that long rifles or short
ones either in America rarely if ever had this level of sophistication in locks.
These long limbed springs distribute stress easily and if you ever have the chance
to handle one,cock it and watch it work. Very small amount ofs of lift give these locks
a quick action and slick feel that is unmatched.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2012, 03:13:01 PM »
One half inch of ATF floating on water? WHICH is the quench agent?
One thing for certain,1075 is a very forgiving material as my own
experiences show.
Bob Roller

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 04:12:49 PM »
I wrote a message, deleted it but can't help myself to write again. ;)  I think it should be noted that springs with the upper leg nearly as long as the lower one are not of the period being discussed.  They are a different animal and much later.  In my limited experience they are weaker than a typical 17th or 18th century spring, which is what would be expected with such a long upper limb.  Perhaps this is compensated from with the long arm of the tumbler.  I know threre are some here who really admire this later British work, but it's good to understand it's place in a historical context.  In terms of spring design for locks of the period being discussed, I think the primary advantage to a tight bend is get the upper leg of the spring lower relative to the barrel.  Also, to head things off at the pass, in my experience, springs on high quality locks from the 17th or 18th centuries were generally pretty strong.  Strong springs with a good lock design results in fast locks.  I don't subscribe to the idea of a "whippy" spring.  Even with strong springs, the lock can be designed such that there is significant let-off at full cock position.  Perhaps this is where lock feel comes into play.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 05:06:43 PM »
Going back to my question for Jim K. in the other thread, there are a number of locks with U, V & plain-flat springs that have the mainspring arced when in the full-cock position.  I was curious to understand the reasoning as to why there would be any concern over the amount of arc in the lower leg as Jim alluded to referencing Bob R's V-spring lock.  As Mark E pointed out, the very nature of the U & V style mainsprings becomes convoluted with both the complexity of motion and physical characteristics of the design.  Typically a flat spring is considered a short-throw linear motion but these V/U designs in lock applications also involve an amount of torsion and the varying cross sectional area also plays into the overall scheme.  Looking at it purely from the resulting function, the spring does nothing more than provide power to the tumbler, the tumbler doesn't care where that power comes from or how it gets there.  The resultant force of the cock movement is attributed to the geometry of the tumbler and not to the spring because as the spring is deflected further into its loaded position, the amount of stored energy increases.  The same increasing load condition will be attained no matter if the power to the tumbler is being applied by a flat, compression, extension or torsion spring.

I can't do anything more than speculate on Bob's V spring without knowing if it has a second retainer on the upper leg or not as does say the U-spring in a Siler lock.  In the Siler, the upper leg is anchored at the bolster and at the pin just above the U-bend rendering the upper leg into a fixed position and as such the entire load is taken by the linear deflection of the lower leg and torsion deflection of the U-bend.  If the upper leg in Bob's lock does not have the second anchor point on the upper leg, such would allow compound linear deflection of both the upper and lower legs proportionally thus there would be very little force applied to the Vee as it would essentially become nothing more than the floating transition point between the upper & lower leafs.  The same but to a lesser extent would apply if Bob's lock has a second anchor point on the upper leg that is further away from the Vee.

The life of any spring is primarily attributed to the amount of fatigue it sees in-use be that from cycling, deflection distance, resonance, shock-loading, ect.  In the case of a flintlock, the first shock-load the mainspring sees is when the flint strikes the frizzen, the second shock-load is seen when the frizzen resistance is lost and finally when the cock makes the dead-stop at the bottom of its stroke.  No matter the source of the shock-loading, there's going to be three primary nodes that take the brunt of the shock-load, one near the tumbler/stirrup, another near the bend on the lower leg and another near the first anchor point on the upper leg.  Similarly the dynamic loading also produces areas of higher stress and fatigue than others, the key is to have a working balance between the design and the acceptable dynamic and shock load characteristics.  Look at Dave's spring, like the Siler and other similar locks, the cross sectional area of the spring is considerably greater at the bend so the loads are distributed over a larger area which reduces the per-unit loading.  On Bob's spring, there isn't a major increase in cross sectional area at the bend but rather it appears to have a fairly uniform taper to either side of the bend.  In both cases the per-unit loading is reduced.  In the grand scheme of things, it's nothing more than two halves of the same circle, one goes CW, the other CCW but they both accomplish the same goal of meeting at the same point.  Harkening back to reference about the amount of deflection in the lower leg of Bob's lock, the amount of deflection does not pose any concern as long as it's within the working parameters of the spring material, design and per-unit loading.

As for the issue of the design being historically correct in appearance, that's a whole different thing, I'm merely commenting on the different manners in which one can obtain the same function via different design parameters.  Jim, as for your comment on the strength of the spring, such can be the case but that's an issue with the specific spring because no matter if the spring is thinner but longer or shorter but fatter, the load characteristics be the exact same but the loading characteristics will be completely different.  From the function standpoint only, one could easily replace both of these styles of springs with a very short eccentric S-style torsion spring low-slung on the bottom of the lock plate and it would be a lot less susceptible to the shock-load fatigue and the pre-load relaxation that is realized in flat springs although not be anywhere near historically correct.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 05:30:35 PM »

The long upper leg mainspring likely came about as a result of lock/breech design, as we see here.
The link tumbler and other internals are much older and go back to the 1780s at least.
But the cheap trade lock generally used on American guns did not have this level of sophistication. Nor did the military locks even the English ones. Cost... The military was very cost conscious. Besides the average infantryman in Britain, for example, was thought of as no better than a guttersnipe anyway and a good lock would be wasted on them and it was only a musket afterall. This attitude carried on to present day in almost all societies. Read Kipling's "Tommy".
Those "buggy whip" springs weaker? Back when I was building BPCR target rifles I used to buy "Spencer" mainsprings for the 74 Sharps, the internals are the same for both locks. These "NOS" Civil War surplus light weight springs (compared to anything else) were head and shoulders over anything else and certainly are not weak buy any standard. They greatly reduced lock time and with another mod or two improved accuracy. I do not believe the long leg springs are inherently weaker. They were generally heavily preloaded, compared to the cast springs we normally see today and coupled with the link and proper layout produces several advantages for both flint and percussion locks that are not seen in the "rub on the tumbler type". People who have not used a good lock and thought about it would never notice though.
The link equipped tumbler is not "typical " for a rifle made in America in 1770-1780 or throughout the "flint era" for that matter. The only place that the better quality locks are seen in is some of the high end products of the North East.
Many of the locks parts today that are cast from originals have mainsprings that lack the proper preload and if cast to the original contour will usually break. Frizzen springs are lower stress and can be cast with pretty good success at or close to the original profile.
It would also be a mistake to think that these high end locks were developed by a Gun Maker. They were likely designed by one of the high end lock filers of the time and perhaps over decades. If Twigg, for example, had "invented it" he would have likely have patented it. By the late 18th c. Gun Makers were patenting so many "improvements" that there were cartoons appearing in newspapers about it.  While some may have had in house lock filers, most purchased locks. From my reading.
The difference in locks in discussed by W. Greener in "The Gun" from the 1830s.






Note the "half-a-crown a bushel" comment then think "export locks".

Dan
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 05:48:41 PM »
On my flintlocks.the upper limb does have the second anchor point and few of
my caplocks do. See if you can find the picture of the Twigg remake I did for Taylor Sapergia
and it shows my every day standard for springs.I have a little Bailes lock here I made 32 years
ago for Helmut Mohr in Germany and it has been in competitions for all of its service life.
The springs (3) and mechanism still look and work like new and the frizzen is worn out and will be
reconditioned and a replacement fitted. New top jaw screw also as the original is stripped.
I make a caplock like the Stanton shown here earlier so I will not explain that one. My other
caplocks usually have a milled lock plate with a high bolster that will accomodate the Stanton
style mainspring and give the gun maker a lot of latitude in fitting a bolster breech.

Bob Roller

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 05:53:56 PM »
Dan, thank you for those scans. When I read 'bushels of locks', I think of slave labor conditions in a 'free' world. Dirty, low pay, impoverished working conditions, in the smoky polluted Birmingham or London.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 06:55:30 PM »
People have to work for a living. They always have in one way or another. You think killing a Wooly Mammoth with a sharp stick was fun? Or SAFE?
When the barrel welding machine was introduced in England there were riots because the people being deprived of working in a hot, dirty, hazarous forge swinging hammers all day lost their hot, hard, dirty jobs to a labor saving device were now going to starve.

The lock filer in Birmingham, while not as "free" as someone on the fringes of civilization in 1790 America was not as likely to be shot from behind a tree by the previous land owner while grubbing stumps. Or captured and burnt at the stake for the amusement of his captors.
He likely ate better most of the time as well. The British were their own greatest oppressors constantly going back to the landed gentry and royalty for leadership even after overthrowing them.

Jump forward to the 20th c. study Cambodia in the mid-1970s the "leadership" destroyed as much knowledge and industry as possible and millions died, the lucky ones were shot. Then to the 21st C. look at the nite satellite overhead of N Korea then compare it South Korea. The stories that come out of NK are gruesome, like some horror movie. So you might want to think about the labor conditions under the Nazis in 1930s-40s Europe or in North Korea. The lock filer on 18th-19th c. England was not so bad off afterall.
We live in a country where the "poor"  drive cars and have flat screen TVs. Yet its fashionable to attack the people that make it possible. The nasty old rich people that provide the jobs and pay the taxes so the poor can watch football on a flat screen.
Many places the working class live a far "poorer" existence.

Dan
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2012, 07:14:47 PM »
Thank you everyone,
There are a lot of good nuggets to think about here.  To focus the thread a little more, let me ask a few questions.

Is it important that the lower leaf remain straight particularly when the lock is at full cock?

What do your springs look like when out of the locks?  Does the lower leaf arc downward or is it straight?

Do any of you have guidelines for shaping the hook on springs that press directly against the tumbler?

On mainsprings used with stirrups, do you have any guidelines concerning the length of the lower leaf of the spring and length of the stirrup?

Thanks again.

dave
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2012, 07:22:10 PM »
Hi Bob,
I forgot to answer your question about my quench.  The water is the quench, the oil helps to prevent cracking during the initial shock of plunging the hot metal into the quench.  I use this method only for 10x steel.  After discussing this with several knife makers, I am going to switch to 100% canola oil quench.  It cools quickly and has the added advantage of not stinking badly.  I use 1075 steel because it seems to make fine springs and is very forgiving.

dave
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2012, 09:19:15 PM »
Is it important for the lower leaf to be straight at full cock?  From a functional standpoint I'm not sure it is all that important.  Perhaps it has an impact that I don't understand, though.  From an aesthetic point of view or from the standpoint of matching original work, yes it does.  This feature is widely accepted as a characteristic of a well made lock today.

What does a spring look like when out of the lock?  Usually there is a bit of downward arc to the lower leg.  Can't remember one ever being straigt.  If straight, I suspect a backwards bend would result.

Any guidelines for shaping the hook?   Make it work, make it look like good originals, make it look nice.

A final point to all of this is that the best way to understand locks is to examine and study good original work.  They had it figured out.  I posted some time ago regarding a French lock by Thruaine I had that was made around 1670.  It is amazing how developed this lock is at such an early date.  Basically it has everything that would be expected of a good flintlock.  So, in building locks today, the best way is to find good locks to use as a guide.  Even castings pulled from originals can be used in this regard.



keweenaw

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2012, 09:50:26 PM »
Even on those tightly bent springs the lower arm shouldn't touch the upper arm at full cock.  A lower arm touching the upper arm as it is compressed will put a stress in the spring which will almost always cause it to break in use.  The first photo is of a mid 18th century lock that Jim K. will recognize as he built a copy of it.  That mainspring while long is definitely not whimpy even after 250 years.



This next lock is a John Manton V pan lock from about 1815.  These are about the fastest locks ever made for flintlocks. 



This last lock is from a best grade Westley Richards shotgun from about 1870.  Very similar to the Manton in many respect with incredibly fast lock time.  I've put in photos of the lock cock and uncocked.  You'll note that when the lock is cocked the lower arm just straightens out to parallel, without touching the upper arm. Notice how tight the bend is on this spring.





In all of these the lower arm of the spring has a moderate amount of downward curve when out of the lock.  No good mainspring will overarch.  With an overarched spring you are having more of the work done by the thin, and less powerful front of the spring which will result in slower lock time. 

Tom


Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2012, 10:18:31 PM »
I have used 1075 for about 50 years and it has always worked well for me and I
assume the people that I have made locks for. I use a 5W-30 motor oil,the same
as I use in my car engine.  Other parts ,sear,fly and tumbler are quenched in a lighter
oil as used in hydraulic jacks and it also seems to work well.

Bob Roller

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2012, 10:28:40 PM »






Tom, does this lower leaf touch the top leaf? It looks certainly like the top leaf straightens out when the spring is loaded up, but it does not mean the leaves touch. But it sure looks like they do.  ;D
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Mainspring design
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2012, 03:51:19 PM »
Put a cigarette paper between the limbs of that spring and cock the lock.
If it captures the paper,they touch (which does NO harm)if the paper can be pulled out
they don't.
I use cigarette papers as a feeler gage when zeroing the lash on a mill by laying the paper
on the piece to be milled and when the cutter slices the paper,I zero the dial and make the cut.

Bob Roller