Help me identify

[dtiques]

I purchased this rifle about 30 years ago at a farm auction in Pa. It is still in it's as found condition. Many years ago I had an old timer w/ the KRA look at it and didn't give me any info. However, he called me twice a year to see how I and the gun was doing. I believe he was more interested in the barrel with the block "SI" stamp. The big bore barrel is a tad shy of 42". Any thoughts on region or date would be appreciated. <a href="http://s1292.beta.photobucket.com/user/dtiques/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/dtiques/IMG_0389.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/>[/url]

[Shreckmeister]

Can you post a picture of the cheek side of the stock opposite the patchbox and a photo
of the lock?  This would help.  The gun has some early features.  Nice rifle.  It may say
S L not S I.  I think this one is going to get identified.  Originally flint my guess.
Loudy is that Sam's work?

[dtiques]

added pics of the look and cheek side.<a href="http://s1292.beta.photobucket.com/user/dtiques/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/dtiques/IMG_0395.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/>[/url]

[Avlrc]

The finial on the patchbox has some similarities to those on page 196 & 197 in the Red Patchbox Book.

[Tanselman]

Very nice rifle. Any chance we can see a picture of the full tang at the back of the barrel? My first guess would be South Carolina for this rifle, based on patchbox outline, simple molding lines and wavy termination at rear ramrod pipe, slightly low positioned rear of side facings, and lack of engraving. We also should keep in mind the initial stamp could be SJ or JS, since I and J were the same letter on early guns. Shelby Gallien

[dtiques]

A picture of the tang. I've had a couple comments that this is an early rifle. Could someone give me a date?
http://s1292.beta.photobucket.com/user/dtiques/media/IMG_0401.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

[Buck]

dtiques,
Nice rifle, I would agree it is an early rifle. It appears that the trigger guard is screwed at the rear and pinned at the front, is that correct? The side plate also appears to be very thick and chamfered. Also appears to be a big caliber smooth bore. I would guess in the 58 - 60 caliber range? I would guess 1790's maybe 1785 at the earliest (my opinion). Great piece.
Buck
Added foot note Sellers has 2 listings for SL but no name to add to the initials. SI maybe Samuel Israel Greene CO.PA 1809-1810 Good luck!

[dtiques]

Buck,

All your observations referencing the lock plate, trigger guard and bore are correct. I found reference to Samuel Israel, Waynesburg, Pa. I also had someone tell me that it may be the early work of John Sherry, Westmoreland Cty, Pa. who stamped some of his barrels with an "IS". His guns have a roman nose profile to the buttstocks which this gun also shows.
Thanks for the input.

Dtiques

[Shreckmeister]

The finial on the patchbox has some similarities to those on page 196 & 197 in the Red Patchbox Book.

Who does the patchbox book say the maker is?

[Buck]

Rob,
The Hagys. I believe they were fron Lancaster. It was also spelled Haga or Hage. I don't think it is the same maker as in the Patchbox Book (Haga, Hage or Hagy however you want to spell it).
Buck

[Avlrc]

Buck,

All your observations referencing the lock plate, trigger guard and bore are correct. I found reference to Samuel Israel, Waynesburg, Pa. I also had someone tell me that it may be the early work of John Sherry, Westmoreland Cty, Pa. who stamped some of his barrels with an "IS". His guns have a roman nose profile to the buttstocks which this gun also shows.
Thanks for the input.

Dtiques

On page 92 of " Longrifles of Western Pennsylavnia" Under a rifle attributed to John Sherry, they state.  "The barrel of this rifle is stamped I S in a deep cartouche on the underside of the barrel" . They also speculate that he may have been taught in the East. As his guns  has features of Berks & York County. Possibly George Eister ( Eyster) since his early patchboxes had the same outline. They also state that he, may have worked for one more Eastern Gunsmiths during his first four or five years of his career. This may be why your finial is similar(not exact) to John Hagey's(Haga) in the Patchbox Book.

[Buck]

Avlrc,
Is it SI or IS? Being that it is a right handed rifle I would guess that the initial is read right to left SI. I understand the theory of inscriptions on the patchbox upside down as to not flip the rifle around rather turn it toe plate up and read it. Kind of the same scenario your holding that side of the rifle to your torso and there is the inscription SI. Maybe I am dyslexic! Also that isn't the underside of the barrel. That letter that you percieving as a L could also be an E.
Buck

[Avlrc]

Avlrc,
Is it SI or IS? Being that it is a right handed rifle I would guess that the initial is read right to left SI. I understand the theory of inscriptions on the patchbox upside down as to not flip the rifle around rather turn it toe plate up and read it. Kind of the same scenario your holding that side of the rifle to your torso and there is the inscription SI. Maybe I am dyslexic! Also that isn't the underside of the barrel. That letter that you percieving as a L could also be an E.
Buck

Are you asking about the one inthe Western PA book? There is no picture of the cartouche. Just the statement "The barrel of this rifle is stamped I S in a deep cartouche on the underside of the barrel" .

[Mark Tyler]

SHERRY, John — Born in 1797, in Lancaster County, Pa. Served his apprenticeship and learned the trade of rifle-making in the Leman rifle shop, which he entered at the age of 17 and remained for 12 years. Established himself in 1830 in Beaver Township, Clarion Co., Pa., as a maker of early percussion Kentucky rifles. Inventor of the segmental rifle groove and one of the first to use gain twist rifling. John Sherry died in 1889.

AMERICAN GUN MAKERS by SATTERLEE & GLUCKMAN

[Buck]

No, I am refering to the rifle within this thread on the photobucket page. When holding the rifle Lock side out with the cartouche in towards the torso it reads SI. When holding the rifle opposite hand from how it was made with the cartouche outward it reads I or J S. In other words when holding the rifle correctly as a right handed shooter with the muzzle facing to the left and the cartouche facing you it reads SI or SJ. I would not think that the rifle maker whomever it maybe would stamp his initials in backwards. Review the photos and you will see what I am looking at.
Buck

[Buck]

Mark,
Thanks for the input, I would think that knocks him out of the running. The thing I find most intersting is the side plate. I can't remember seeing the brass surround of the forward screw squared like that. An interesting and odd detail.
Buck

[Shreckmeister]

Sad that we lost Dave McIntire.  He could have given a quick yes or no on John Sherry as this was one
of his favorite makers and he had seen many.  Waiting for the big boys to weigh in on this rifle....

[Avlrc]

SHERRY, John — Born in 1797, in Lancaster County, Pa. Served his apprenticeship and learned the trade of rifle-making in the Leman rifle shop, which he entered at the age of 17 and remained for 12 years. Established himself in 1830 in Beaver Township, Clarion Co., Pa., as a maker of early percussion Kentucky rifles. Inventor of the segmental rifle groove and one of the first to use gain twist rifling. John Sherry died in 1889.

AMERICAN GUN MAKERS by SATTERLEE & GLUCKMAN

Must be another John Sherry, In the Western PA book they have him born 1773 in Lehigh Township in Westmoreland County. Dying in 1859 in Clarion County.  His son John Sherry Jr, born 1808 dying in 1893.

[Buck]

Avlrc,
Did you see what I was talking about with the cartouche? Rob I'm 265lbs, doesn't that constitute a "Big Boy"?
Buck

[Avlrc]

Buck, yeah I agree. I would call it S I. Well Buck, you are a "bigger boy" than I, but am closing in on you at 255 and steadily climbing.

[Mark Tyler]

For information on J. Sherry Jr. & Sr. see Russell Harringer's book "Longrifles of Pennsylvania Volume I Jefferson, Clarion & Elk Counties".

I am doubtful this is a Sherry rifle.

[Buck]

Avlrc,
Don't worry the hope and change we are all about to experience will slim us all down soon enough. Just consider yourself somewhat prepared.
Buck

[keweenaw]

That SI or IS might be a barrel maker's mark and not a gunsmith's mark.  Usually the barrel maker's marks are on the bottom but they are frequently just two initials put in with a stamp.  Here's one on a prerevolutionary period barrel that's also fun as it shows a rather deep groove for the front lock bolt.


I have no idea who made this rifle but it's clearly not a Hagey as someone suggested.  His work is very consistent and of a quite different architecture, classic early 19th century Lancaster.  Unless you can identify a maker, which will be very difficult unless the initials are actually those of a known maker, that rifle will be hard to date. The lock is early but it might be a reuse.  Where did the rifle show up?

Tom

[dtiques]

Tom,
Thank you for the input. I purchased the rifle at a country auction in Westmoreland county, Pa. in the late 70's. It is the same condition now as it was than. I had several people mention Samuel Israel who was listed as a gunsmith in Waynesburg, Pa. in  1808. Unfortunately I was never able to find any info on the man or his family. I was hoping that I could trace his roots back East.

[Shreckmeister]

Did someone mention Samuel Israel in this thread.  I thought I read that, but can't find it now.
Anyone have photos of a John Sherry to compare it with?  Seems like a shame to leave this
thread unsolved.