Still Sketching......

[JohnTyg]

Many drawing on paper and several on the rifle and it still does't "look right", not balanced or something.
I would love to just finish the carving and get on to finishing.
Any comments on this?

Thanks,
John

[Acer Saccharum]

John, I think your drawing is very pleasing. Your curves are particularly smooth.

A suggestion to make it better, but this is in my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

1) the curves on the main scroll should taper slightly. Currently they are too parallel-sided. Big on the right-hand end, tapering down as the eye follows the scroll counter-clockwise. This slight tapering adds visual interest.

Very rough sketch, my apologies, but I am trying to illustrate that the stem form on the right is growing out of the leaves at the top central:

[JohnTyg]

Acer,

Thanks, that makes sense.  Your drawing helps with visualizing the point.

Also that main volute looks awkward to me, a little too large or needs to be flattened or more ovoid?

Thanks.

[David Rase]

What I am not seeing in your volute is a tightening of the scroll.  Your spacing between the lines is pretty much the same on the outside as in the center.  Try tightening up the scroll slightly as it winds towards the center.  The area between the lines should diminish towards the center of the volute.
Dave

[JohnTyg]

You're right,  I think that was part of what didn't look correct to me.
I'm at the stage that I know when something does't look as it should but sometimes have a difficult time identifying what it is I need to correct.  Just lack of experience.  Your and Acer's recommendations are appreciated.

[Jerry V Lape]

John, I think it a little strange to have two volutes of equal size behind the cheek piece.  Sort of confuses the eye on where the balance is or were the focus should be.  This is my very amateur opinion but there are many other interesting shapes in Rococo art which would add to the design versus just filling the open space. 

[kutter]

It's backwards to my eye for the area it's placed in,,,the C scroll should start out smaller than it ends up.

The beginning of the scroll under the cheek piece is good. Then as it winds clockwise around it should end up with a larger scroll at it's end, even if just slightly so. That large blank triangular area down in the toe of the butt has lost out to much carving here. But that is where the carved scroll is headed for as it unwinds. Give the eye something there to see as it follows the scroll.

Right now it's actual starting point is the smaller diameter end lying out on the stock, ending with the larger scroll tucked under the cheek piece.
To add to the eyes confusion,,the decorative leaf and the additional small scroll on top roll off the C scroll from the wrong direction because of it's current layout/starting point.

Just draw it larger at the butt end of it.,,& perhaps reduce the size of the scroll under the cheek piece to adjust if needed. Go from there..

Don't worry about adding the secondary scroll on top till you get the main one layed out.

[JohnTyg]

so far lots to consider. 
Thanks.

[Acer Saccharum]

..so far lots to consider

John, if you carved your design as is, it would be just fine. We sometimes get caught up in the pursuit of perfection, and progress grinds to a halt.

This is a spot I  sometimes find myself in, obsessing over something that would be just fine as I originally conceived it, but I work myself into a lather over it until I no longer have a good vision of where I was going with it.

At some point you'll get sick of re-working the design, and you'll just cut it.

[JohnTyg]

Acer,

Sort of came to that conclusion.   Some very good observations here, but wont knock myself out as I am trying to limit my compulsiveness, otherwise will never finish this.

Good observations though, you hit it right on with the tapering of the elements and I do think that initial volute a little large for the "flow" from left to right.

Won't make any drastic changes, hope to get this finished sometime in the near future.

John

[Jim Kibler]

Here are some sketches.  I traced your drawing and then on the first example, I worked fairly close to your general pattern.  I moved some lines a touch and just tried to clean things up so they would work a little better.  In looking at this example, the biggest problem I see is that there is strong flow from left to right on the top part of the design, while the rest of the design, including the big lower leaf flows downward pretty strong.  So I tried again.  I re-drew the big scroll a little, squashing it out a bit, kept the upper part, but eliminated the leaf on the lower part.  I then added a few details.  It could still be improved on, but it's moving in a good direction.  Now, I'm not saying that designs that are a bit funky and folky aren't okay.  They're just not okay for me.   I think this process could generate some good discussion concerning this design, so please ask any questions about why I chose to do what I did.

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

I should also add, that these are just a couple options.  There are MANY directions this sort of thing can go.  Perhaps it will provide some ideas.

Jim

[PPatch]

John;

I look forward to viewing your carved stock. I hope you will post pix.

I liked your initial design and you have received some helpful insight toward improving it slightly, especially the tightening of the left volute - Acer, as usual, had constructive advice, Jim Kimbler's first drawing tweaked something that improved the design to my eye - enlarging and moving down (visually, if not in fact) the leaf element on the right. That was the first thing that caught my eye when I looked at your sketch, that leaf seemed a bit timid and high. You should have a good idea of how to execute your carving now. Smart to submit it and ask for other eyes to remark.

Have fun!

Dave

[Acer Saccharum]

I like this kind of posting because we all learn from it.

[JohnTyg]

Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to provide some sketches, very helpful and without which it would be difficult to visualize some of the recommendations.

The first sketch may seem a little "funky" but it's starting to grow on me, I think because it stems more directly from my original sketch. Would like to think I would arrive (eventually) at some of these improvements on my own,  but this forum does accelerate the learning experience.

I think I would recognize that second more refined drawing as yours, even if it stood unidentified.

Again thanks for your input.

Dave,

I look forward to posting pics of the finished rifle once completed. Its my first effort in 40 years and hope its not going to be too amateurish.  This site has helped significantly in making this a better rifle than I anticipated I could make.

John

[Acer Saccharum]

John, finish this rifle. It is a stepping stone to the next one.

When you say amatuerish, I have to laugh. All my stuff is amatuerish, because I don't do it for a living. I do it for the love of it, for the challenge, for the fun.

Your work is very accomplished; finish the darn thing up, and start another one! Hahahahaha. And another one! And another one. Keep the parts guys and gals in business.

am·a·teur  (m-tūr, -tr, -chr, -chr, -tyr)
n.
1. A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.

[dagner]

 the c scroll just does not seem  look right in the cheek  piece curvature  and i agree that the c appears  to round   ,  it makes me think it is forced in their   maybee roll the c so the top lines dont run threw the rear tapper then lenghen the c a little.   your doing very nice work  please show how you decide to do it and when finished
dag

[Jim Kibler]

Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to provide some sketches, very helpful and without which it would be difficult to visualize some of the recommendations.

The first sketch may seem a little "funky" but it's starting to grow on me, I think because it stems more directly from my original sketch. Would like to think I would arrive (eventually) at some of these improvements on my own,  but this forum does accelerate the learning experience.

I think I would recognize that second more refined drawing as yours, even if it stood unidentified.

Again thanks for your input.

I'm happy to help.  It's clear that you're working hard to learn.  What might be beneficial is to get into more specifics about why aspects of a design work or why they don't.  Suggestions are good, but there needs to be an understanding of the design.   Liking it or not is a start, but understanding is better.  This isn't just some random subjective thing.  Keep at it!

[Dale Campbell]

John, Thanks for posting your in progress work. I've gotten a lot from this discussion.

Jim K., Thanks for doing those drawings. I was bothered by the width of the downward leaf, but didn't know how to either articulate the problem, or have a solution. So I kept my my shut (internettly speaking).  Your addition of a simple curve to narrow the leaf not only showed me what needed to be done, but how simple it could be.  There is no elegance without simplicity.

[JohnTyg]

Jim,

Agree with Dale's comment that the molding/modeling line you added to the lower leaf slims and improves this element, something missing in my outline sketch.

I do have a question about how the portion of the C scroll that rides under the rear of the cheek piece curvature should relate to it (see post by Dagner).  In my early sketches I tried to tie the outer portion of the scroll directly into this line.  Gave up on that as it was too problematic so simply dropped the whole thing below that line, which is what I see on many rifles.  I am assuming that the inner line of the scroll should be parallel to the line of the cheek piece and the taper of the outer line subtle?  I've re-posted Acer's sketch to illustrate this.



I think this has turned out to be a helpful post and and would hope to see more of others work offered up for critique in regards to architecture and design. I seem to enjoy most, and gain more, from these types of discussions.

John

[Jim Kibler]

John,

I think it's nice if the outer line of he scroll can ride on this ridge.  Now with that said, this depends on how the stock has been shaped and where the ridge has been positioned.  Also it's often that this ridge is formed a little more sever or sharp today as compared to a large number of originals.  I also like to not try to continue this upper line around the rest of the volute, but to stop it.  Seems to help create the illusion that the carving is coming from the cheekpiece rather than just a design applied to the area behind it. With that said, many originals are designed the way I try to avoid!  There would be nothing wrong with doing things like this, though.  It is entirely possible to adjust the shape of your cheek piece to alter this line.  In your case, it would be hollowing it out a bit more to drop the curve.  Lots of options.  As far as things being parallel or not, it's always good to have taper in your design.  It looks better and makes the whole carving process easier.  How the design relates to this line being discussed is something you'll have to play with.  Draw and ask yourself if it looks good.  If you're not satisfied, try something else.   That's really what this stuff is about.  As experience is gained, you get a feel as to where to head to make things better.  I know this is rambling, but hope it helps.

[Acer Saccharum]

As Jim has pointed out: draw and look.

John, your workmanship is crisp and clean, and all of the carving options you have shown would work. It really comes down to what pleases you. And that is not so simple to figure out.

[PPatch]

Acer and Jim are spot on John. I will add that sometimes you just have to give a project a break and get away from it for a while, go work on something entirely different and get your mind off of it. When you come back to it my bet is that it will instantly fall into perspective and you will immediately know just how to proceed, and then do it. Also, knowing when to stop is important, that is, there comes a point in the execution of a design, illustration, project that is a natural "this is done" moment and any more messing with it will only degrade it. Realizing this moment is as important as the moment when it all clicks and you know just what you are going to attempt.

I am not telling you to stop, I am only giving a general guide to how these "art" projects go as I know it. There is inspiration followed by sketching and a general work up to realizing the design. This is followed by commitment to a final design leading to a careful layout, whether it is on paper, canvas, a building or a gunstock. Then comes the second thoughts and nit picking yourself which is often times just a manifestation of anxiety and not really productive because your original idea usually turns out to be the best of you and you've already tweaked it during the sketch phrase. Go with it. Then the work of actually doing it, and many more times than not it is good, if not great.

Success!

Next, and this always happens - comes a depressive state to one degree or another, you are spent mentally but you recover rapidly and the next thing you know you have another gun to build, or canvas to paint. And then, this too always occurs - after some time has passed and you've more or less moved on and are deep into something else you happen upon that gun and spot your "art" and tell yourself "Jeez, that ain't at all bad, did I do that!"

Yes.

Dave

[JohnTyg]

Dave,

Often I do end up going back to what I had initially done, but then "improved" upon.
Looking back at the very first sketch on the rifle, the outline of the scroll itself doesn't look too off (please ignore the other doodles).




I work an outrageous number of hours per week so this is fine relaxation.  When I fatigue mentally or become stale from a creative standpoint I do take breaks, or step away, by rotating my "hobbies". My wife tolerates the rifle building better than the others.

John

[PPatch]

I see what you mean John, and btw, nice looking Shoot'n Iron! I am going to leave the coaching the professionals now John, I am a rank amateur at gun making. Look forward to seeing that flintlock with the stock all carved and dressed in a nice finish.

Dave