Straight touch holes only

[bama]

I got to thinking about this because of the other thread going on the board about touchhole location. I am always interested in everyones experiance about touchhole location and ignition speed. I would like to hear from the tradition non liner folks about the reliability of their rifles. Please give your experiance only if you use a straight drilled touch hole.

I will start this by giving my experiance.

I built an early southern rifle using a 54 cal 1 1/16 tapered and flared barrel 46" Rice barrel. For the lock I used a Chambers round faced lock. The touch hole is 1/16" straight drilled hole. The touch hole is drilled so the OD of the drilled hole is flush with the face of the breach.

I have approx. 200 hundred shots through this rifle and I can honestly say I have never had a miss fire or flash in the pan with this rifle. Now I have had a few hang fires and a few clacks when my flint got dull but over all performance has been very good.

Here are my observations:

For the most part the touch is cleared by the backpressure created by the firing of the charge. Anybody that doubts that this happens just has to stand to the lock side of the rifle even with the touch hole when the rifle get fired, most people only do this once, some of us are a little slower and look directly at the touch hole to make sure. Please wear safety glasses when performing the feat of intelligence.

Even though the touch hole gets cleaned I still use a vent pick after charging the rifle.

I think that this is where the difference in time of ignition occures. Distance can be dirrectly related to time and the further the distance between the charge and the ignition source, the primming.

Now per Larry's experimants there is very little time difference between straight and coned touch holes. It stands to reason though that the farther the distance the greater the time. The question is can a person preceive that small difference. I say that a person that is a seasoned flintlock shooter can. I shoot both methods and I can deffinately tell the difference even though it is small. It is enough that I know I have to follow through after the shot just a little longer.

Hang fires - I feel that most of the time I have a hang fire is when I have had a charge in the barrel for a long time in damp or humid conditions. I have also had a few hang fires when I shoot a match and I am wiping between shots, sometimes the fowling will build up at the breach enough to cause a hang fire. The only way to cure this is a good cleaning before continuing to shoot. But I feel hang fires as discussed here is common to both staright and coned touch holes.

Flints I feel have no bearing on if either system works well, only that a dull flint will make either not perform well.

These are my experiances - please add yours as I am very interested how other traditional or straight drilled touch hole shooters feel about their rifles performance.

[duca]

Hi Bama; I to built a rifle and drilled the touch hole right into the barrel. I did not cone the inside of the touch hole before I test fired it. The rifle went off every time. Sometime later I bought a coning tool for the inside of the touch hole from someone on the forum. pretty cool tool. The rifle still goes off every time. What I did notice was after loading the rifle if I picked the touch hole before I primed I would get a Flash in the pan most of the time. Now if I pick the touch hole I do it before I load. The rifle goes off every time.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I also use just a straight drilled flash hole on the guns I build.  The reason I do this shows that I am certainly out of step with many who contribute to this site.  I try to make a gun using the original materials and methods that were used 200 years ago.  This way of gunmaking results in a straight drilled flash hole without a liner, as most original American guns were made, perhaps we could even go so far as to say that almost all did not use a liner. 

The flash holes do have a very slight taper as they are drilled using an 18th c spade drill bit with a gentleman's hand brace, followed by a very slightly tapered square reamer to open the flash hole until the opening at the barrel outside is very close to 0.09.  As someone commented previously on the earlier topic, this takes about an hour to complete, and drill bit breakage is a common occurance, just as it was 200 years ago.  Here is a photo of a German rifle with an original barrel and a hand made lock.  The flash hole was drilled as described above. 

I do understand that making a gun in this fashion does not result in one that wins the paper target accuracy competition, or that wins the most beautiful artwork prize either.

jim

[Keb]

I was somewhere shooting a woods walk when an over zealous range officer insisted on picking my straight drilled vent hole when the gun didn't go off the 1st time. I told him to keep his hands off my gun. I don't pick a loaded gun. He seemed confused and said, "OK. It's your score." I knapped the flint and, BANG. Unfortunately, I missed. I'm not as good a shooter as I once was but I know how to make my guns work.

[Jim Kibler]

James,

How have you concluded that an external taper was used on touch holes?  Also, no reason a gun made in the manner you describe can't win the paper target competion or beautiful artwork prize.  Afterall, we certainly admire many original guns at least for some of these characteristics.  Traditional materials and methods doesn't equate to poor function or lack of beauty.

Jim

[Don Getz]

The first gun I built had a 7/8" straight Douglas barrel in 45 cal.    It had merely a hole drilled for a touch hole.    I shot this gun a lot, and at tmes quite well.   Something I don't understand is the "picking" the touch hole when the gun is loaded.
When you do this, aren't you in fact pushing the powder away from the hole?  How can this speed up ignition?.......Don

[Mike Brooks]

I have tried a straight touch hole and do them (reluctantly) when a customer requests.  I found them to be noticeably slower than a white lightnin' liner.

[duca]

The first gun I built had a 7/8" straight Douglas barrel in 45 cal.    It had merely a hole drilled for a touch hole.    I shot this gun a lot, and at tmes quite well.   Something I don't understand is the "picking" the touch hole when the gun is loaded.
When you do this, aren't you in fact pushing the powder away from the hole?  How can this speed up ignition?.......Don

I agree Totally............

[Bob Roller]

The touch hole liner apparently was an invention from England during the
"Patent Mania"phase of gun development. Robert Held's book,"The Age of
Firearms" mentions this and a spoof cartoon shows a gun that goes off in
every possible direction that pokes fun at the "Patent Mania". As far as a
flintlock goes,the Brits certainly did more than anyone to make this externally
generated ignition system as reliable as possible.
Like Don,I am not sure about "picking" a touch hole but I do insert a pick
into the hole while loading and when it's pulled out,an open hole is pretty
well ready for the primer charge.
One more thing. In the recent issue of Muzzleloader Magazine is an article
on "Silver Rifles" and the author has high praise for my locks but he also,
mistakenly stated that I would refuse orders unless they were from Germany.
This is NOT true and never has been. What I DID refuse and still do are the
phone calls from people telling me how cheap they can get a lock or trigger
or whatever else. I make locks for those that can afford the advance in price
which in today's money is not that much.

   Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

I tried a 1/16 straight touch hole on a .62 cal 1 1/4 breech barrel. Two shots convinced me to put a liner in.

A bigger touch hole diam would certainly have helped the ignition, but I didn't want to be blowing all that pressure out the side of the barrel. From what I've read and experienced, a small touch hole keeps pressure variations to a minimum, which helps with accuracy.

[JohnTyg]

Hope this question fits in with this thread.

I see that the stainless steel liners, internally coned, seem to be the first choice with most builders for a fast ignition and I can understand the choice of  stainless for a daily shooter.

Didn't like the look of stainless on my rifle so used an old Ampco liner.  I like the "gold tone" appearance of this alloy, and should offer fast ignition.  I just don't see many using this liner, any problems with it?
It's internally coned, should be fast, and its NOT stainless.  Is Ampco alloy a problem?

[mark esterly]

 have a cva pistol with a simple drilled touch hole angled forward to be in front of the breech plug. no trouble with the touch hole.   
   i think weighing your powder would do more for reducing varying pressure than a smaller touch hole.  touch hole size doesn't change shot to shot. with a volume measure the amount of powder certainly does.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

BWL (Before White Lightning) liners, I used dozens of Ampco liners and nipples, and they work very well indeed.  They are an alloy of copper, and are very tough, but eventually, do need changing when they burn out.  There is nothing wrong with them.  I made a reamer from a drill bit to increase the inside cone size right out to the edge of the 1/4 x 28 threads, though.  The White Lightning liners from Jim Chambers already are coned to best advantage.

[Acer Saccharum]

Just for your info, Chambers makes a STEEL liner. It browns just like the rest of the barrel. However, it doesn't resist erosion like the stainless liner does.

[JohnTyg]

Thought it was stainless,  my misinformation.  Thanks for clarifying that.

John

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

In response to Jim Kibler.  The reamers used in the 18th c were slightly tapered and used to bring a rough drilled hole to the proper diameter.  The spade "fish-tail" shaped drill bits of the period could only make a hole of the approximate size and the hole was reamed later to bring the diameter up to the size needed.  Here are some tapered reamers, although the one I use for such small holes as the flash hole are used by hand in a small wood handle.  When making holes where access is possible to both sides I use the reamer to result in a very slightly "hour glass" shape which will be true to size within a few thousanths.  With the flash hole there is only access from the outside, so the reamed hole ends up with a taper, very slight to be sure.
 Thanks for the question, I hope this makes sense.  (certainly a modern 0.063 diameter twist drill bit in a drill press is a lot easier to use)

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

John Tygart, Chambers liners are available primarily in Stainless Steel. They also have made an occasional run of alloy steel liners.

[Ian Pratt]

James - that's good information for those not familiar with the use of tapered reamers. But I too am curious, Jim's original question was -

How have you concluded that an external taper was used on touch holes?

Unless I am misreading your original post, you seem to indicate that this is how original vents would have been drilled. Very interesting as I have never heard this before. Where did you find this information? 

[JCKelly]

I have (had) two Caywood guns with touch-holes tapered on the outside. One a .45 Southern Mountain rifle, recently gone to somone who may love it more, the other a typewhatever trade gun. Fine gun. Caywood expresses firm dislike of liners, indicating they may blow out. That is his opinion.

C. locks are very fine, that bloody inside-out touch hole is not so fine, in my not-at-all-humble opinion. I might prefer FFg (lots of strong opinions on granulation, I know) but that means flashinthepan. Gotta use (Swiss) FFFg. The only way I can get the thing to actually fire (lots of flash in pan) is to pick the @!*% insideout hole with wire when it is loaded.

Have a Pedersoli Northwest Gun with conventional stainless liner, coned on the inside, and it goes off just fine, loaded with FFg du Pont. A fellow Clinton River Muzzle-loaders Senior Division guy uses a Pedersoli Brown Bess with straight, and fairly large, touch hole. So long as the priming ignites I've not noticed his gun to fail.

[Dennis Glazener]

C. locks are very fine, that bloody inside-out touch hole is not so fine, in my not-at-all-humble opinion. I might prefer FFg (lots of strong opinions on granulation, I know) but that means flashinthepan. Gotta use (Swiss) FFFg. The only way I can get the thing to actually fire (lots of flash in pan) is to pick the @!*% insideout hole with wire when it is loaded.

My 54 caliber hunting rifle has a "C" profile Rice barrel on it. It was one of the early rifles that I built and being used to thin wall 13/16 or 7/8 barrels I saw no need for a vent liner so I drilled a 1/16" flash hole (pan flashes). It has a Chambers Siler lock that really sparks well. I had 10 to 15% miss fires with it, using both 3F and 2F Goex powder. Really aggravated me. I drilled out the hole to .067 which was better then .070 which was about the same. I installed a Chambers White Lighting liner and if I have had a flash in the pan since I don't recall it! I was sold on them and every rifle I have built since has one in it. Oh, I seldom use a pick in the vent and when I do its after the load has been fired.
Dennis

[kutter]

I don't care for the liners personally.
They do what they're advertised to do, no doubt about it.
All kinds of high speed photog stuff to prove it. Seems to be a given that one will be implanted in the bbl of a F/L when it's shown now.

I just don't care for the look on a Long Rifle, stainless and all.
There's so much effort and applause given to traditional materials, tools and methods, that the use of
a stainless steel vent liner doesn't seem to fit in.
Yes I know you can buy one in carbon steel so it hides better, or cone the bbl from the inside and all that, but really,,

From the looks of all the time and effort needed to just drill out the flash hole with the original old tool(s) & techniques, making a liner and then installing it would have seemed a monumental effort at the time for most makers.

I might get a flash in the pan occasionally, but who cares,, it's just fun to be able to still build and shoot the things.
 
JMH (minority) O

[Eric Smith]

I guess I agree with Kutter. Seems strange to me to go to all the trouble of recreating a 18th century artifact only to include a 20th century convienience. I know there are some weapons made in the 18th century that had liners, but how common were they? Did the average rifle made and sold to the frontiersman have one? I don't know. Still doing the research. 

[James Wilson Everett]

Ian,

Thanks for the question, I really enjoy answering these, keep them coming, please.  This is in the realm of what is known as "primary research" in that these is nothing published that would allow us to go to the library to read about the details of making 18th c guns.  So probably not more than a handfull of folks know how it was actually done.   Perhaps a better question is "what is the resulting hole in metal like when formed using only 18th c tooling and processes? "  Of course, this includes the flash hole.  Just as an aside, this is one of the most difficult holes to drill as the length/diameter ratio makes it a very deep hole; it is tiny so the drill and reamer bits are very easily broken; and it is often drilled at a slight angle so both ends are positioned correctly.

Here is a photo of an original bow drill bit, the kind used to drill small holes, such as the flash hole.  The fish tail shape of the bit is to allow for wriggle/wobble of the tool during drilling without breakage.  This type of bit will not result in a well controlled hole either in diameter or in straightness, as we are used to getting with the modern twist drills.



The process of forming any hole in metal with accuracy involved first drilling the hole with this tool, followed by reaming to size with the tapered reamer.  As far as I know, small diameter holes in metal in the 18th c were always slightly tapered.  Tooling did not exist to give a smooth, straight, constant diameter small hole in this period.  Therefore, the flash holes in the 18th c, and all such holes were tapered, the tooling and process did not exist to make them otherwise.

Larger diameter holes, such as the barrel bore were honed smooth, straight, and of constant diameter using an adjustable armory reamer.  The armory reamer has straight cutting edges on the long sides of the tool which allows the barrel bore to be formed without the taper of the smaller holes.  Here is a photo of the armory reamer.



I have never found an armory reamer that was anywhere near tiny enough to form a flash hole.  As a challenge to those who wish to make really accurate reproductions of the 18th c guns, the flash hole must be very slightly tapered!

Jim

[rich pierce]

Great information as always Jim.  I suppose it would be possible to make a tapered square reamer that then ended at the top with a square section, allowing a straight sided hole.  But we don't see those and apparently our forefathers saw no need.

[Bob Roller]

Try to hollow grind the flats of those "square" reamers to establish
some kind of cutting edge or maybe scraping edge. I have also seen
square threading taps that had the threads on the corners and they
worked alright. I think they were from France.

Bob Roller