Author Topic: Straight touch holes only  (Read 28224 times)

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2012, 05:17:59 PM »
James - some more interesting information, but going back to the idea that vent holes were made this way, might you not want to more carefully present this as a theory? Certainly it's a theory based on your own experiences with using tools of the type, and on your studies of their use in the period, but without some kind of proof it shouldn't be presented as fact, should it?
  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that I think the idea you have presented is impossible, but without some kind of proof it remains a theory. I know that documentation is scarce (to say the least) and to the best of my knowledge we don't have a selection of unused 18th century American barrels with original vents drilled that we can examine and compare to see what the original smiths did.

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2012, 06:33:36 PM »
James - some more interesting information, but going back to the idea that vent holes were made this way, might you not want to more carefully present this as a theory? Certainly it's a theory based on your own experiences with using tools of the type, and on your studies of their use in the period, but without some kind of proof it shouldn't be presented as fact, should it?
  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that I think the idea you have presented is impossible, but without some kind of proof it remains a theory. I know that documentation is scarce (to say the least) and to the best of my knowledge we don't have a selection of unused 18th century American barrels with original vents drilled that we can examine and compare to see what the original smiths did.

I'm with Jim and Ian on this subject I have to say... It's admirable to want to research and help people, but if you don't know what your talking about be a little more humble about your assumptions and present them as such. James Wilson Everret you need to do more than simply get soem photos of old tools and the lecture about how you supposed they were used. Old tools are everywhere. Cameras are everywhere. Hands on research and studying the original firearms is something only a very few people are willing and able to do. You need to present you ideas and claims as such not fact.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 07:25:01 PM »
For many years when you built a gun, you had the option of just drilling a touch hole, or installing one of the 1/4x28
touchhole liners.   Then Jim came out with those white lightning liners, which were far superior to those old things.
I cannot imagine looking at a gun built by one of great gun builders and saying, "I would buy that gun if it didn't have that
stainless touch hole liner?   I believe that almost every gun built is still a shooter, and it will work better with a good
touch hole liner..........Don

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 07:50:06 PM »
I think it is different strokes for the different facets of the hobby. For some, its all about optimum performance based on modern standards. For others its all about the experience of our ancestors. How far each person takes to each mindset varies on their degree of interest. For some that big old stainless liner is akin to a red dot scope and for others it poses no problem to have things like stainless liners or 19th century guts in an 18th century lock. For some, the justification of having an example exist in the period is enough to satisfy them while for others that example must be related more than just by period but by place,  person type and situation. A samuri sword on the  Kentucky frontier for example. Most fall in between the two just happy to be there. I understand both sides of this but usually cone the inside of a drilled hole with Tom Snyder's tools.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 08:29:06 PM »
This is certainly a topic for debate. There is also no one decision that will be 'right' for every arm. Straight and coned existed side by side. And each has its own following.

It may be more productive to examine the examples that did, and those that didn't.

Some old fowlers and Besses I've seen have a 1/8 hole in the side. Wow, I think, look at all that pressure loss. But I'll bet the gun went off. In certain guns, as in military line guns, surety of fire may be more important than any accuracy concerns. In a punt gun or Hudson Fowler, the shooter easily compensates for pressure loss by adding a bit more powder.

But in a custom gun shop, the cheapest vent is a simple drilled hole.
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Offline bgf

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »
I see that JWE presented a possible way to drill a touch hole based (I presume) on material evidence and period documentation from other fields.  So, as far as I know, it is currently the preeminent theory on how touch holes were drilled in the 18th century :).  Does anyone else have actual evidence or documentation to the contrary?  I can imagine dozens of ways to drill a hole in a barrel but without any evidence, it would be purely conjecture, whereas Mr. Everett has spent some time and thought on the question and presented his theory along with corroboration, and he was willing to share the information.  I would urge consideration of that before criticizing the mode of presentation too harshly.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2012, 08:33:05 PM »
This is an original barrel, with very little erosion evident in the touch hole. Next time I get to visit this gun, I'll wire the hole, and see if it's straight or tapered on the inside. It's barely over 1/16. I estimate this is Rev War period, and a rifled barrel.

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2012, 08:39:40 PM »
I enjoy J. W. Everett's presentations completely. This is not a instance of 'he's right, and I'm not', or anyone else either.

I see this as a discussion of technology and reconstructing the mode of the day by historical evidence. But I think this will come down to 'modes' of the day, not a single method.

Somewhat related: did Cannon have a tapered touch hole? and fuses were rolled paper, filled with powder? Certainly a tapered ream operation would be done after drilling, to smooth the hole, and to make them uniform from gun to gun. I feel like I'm making this up, so check me here.
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Offline JTR

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2012, 08:49:55 PM »
James - some more interesting information, but going back to the idea that vent holes were made this way, might you not want to more carefully present this as a theory? Certainly it's a theory based on your own experiences with using tools of the type, and on your studies of their use in the period, but without some kind of proof it shouldn't be presented as fact, should it?
  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that I think the idea you have presented is impossible, but without some kind of proof it remains a theory. I know that documentation is scarce (to say the least) and to the best of my knowledge we don't have a selection of unused 18th century American barrels with original vents drilled that we can examine and compare to see what the original smiths did.

I'm with Jim and Ian on this subject I have to say... It's admirable to want to research and help people, but if you don't know what your talking about be a little more humble about your assumptions and present them as such. James Wilson Everret you need to do more than simply get soem photos of old tools and the lecture about how you supposed they were used. Old tools are everywhere. Cameras are everywhere. Hands on research and studying the original firearms is something only a very few people are willing and able to do. You need to present you ideas and claims as such not fact.

And it would be nice if you could present your opinion without being rude to the guy.
John
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2012, 11:51:33 PM »
Does anybody discount that 18th century muskets and trade guns had straight drilled touch holes?
Straight drilled touchholes on common muskets of the 18th century were considered "OK" in a situation where misfires could be quite detrimental. 

Until someone shows us some original Kentucky rifles without evidence of being reworked, having touch hole liners, or internal coning, it is appropriate to assume they did not.  Any other hypothesis is wishful thinking.  People get mixed up between what they want to believe and what there is evidence for.  There's no logic to "you can't prove they didn't".

This does not mean all the white lightning lovers need to get defensive or ticked off.  Just say, "I like 'em, they work, customers like 'em too; that's why I use them."

The NMLRA was born of competitive shooting and most of today's longrifles reflect a blend of desire for maximal accurate performance and historical accuracy.  It's OK.
Andover, Vermont

Offline JTR

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 12:34:33 AM »
Just from my limited collecting experience over the years, out of the 40 or so rifles I've owned, only one, a Henry Spitzer Virginia rifle, had a liner. And I think that was a repair liner, put in after the touch hole had burned out too large.

Out of the guns I've handled over the years, which has to be many many hundreds of guns, I can honestly say that liners in original guns are few and far between. And those that I have seen, including my Spitzer rifle, have liners that look like a tiny helicoil, and nothing like the ones made today.

This is just my experience over the past 30 or so years, so others may have a different view.  ;D

John 
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 01:52:06 AM »
Like I said, it seems kinda crazy to fret over little bitty details to create a detailed Bonewitz or a Dickert, to make it look as much like the old master made it, and the stick a vent liner in the barrel. JMHO. I don't plan on installing one on the rifle I am building, and I don't think I ever will use one. If I ever get a misfire, thats part of the 18th century experience. Kinda like a grain of sand in your collard greens.  ;D
Eric Smith

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 01:56:10 AM »
I've done heat blue on a barrel, and the stainless liner turn a nice golden brown.  ;)
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 02:29:06 AM »
James Wilson Everett, I have seen pictures of the wrought Iron barrels and locks that you have built by hand. Very Impressive!  Did you use this type of 18th C. drill and tapered reamer?  Do you see any other hypothesis possible about how touch holes were made in 18th century American guns?? given what is known about tools that existed?
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 04:23:22 AM »
I had no idea that touch holes were such a sensitive subject. ::)
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 04:33:58 AM »
Oh, man.
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Offline JDK

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 04:46:32 AM »
I had no idea that touch holes were such a sensitive subject. ::)
.....or for that matter, such a "touchy" subject! ;D  Yea, I know...but somebody was going to say it.  Enjoy, J.D.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 05:22:11 AM »
Awe JD, thats touching!!........ & that better than being a little touched.......... :o ;D ;D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:22:27 AM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2012, 05:47:01 AM »
I love Mr. Everetts posts on original tools and their use. Fascinating to me. Interesting to try and discover how things were done in the 18th century. My first builds I used the white lightenings and they work great. My last one I used Tom Snyders coning tool and it works great too. It was a .62 cal. rifle and ignition is very fast. I usually wipe between shots and I've noticed that eventually the vent will plug if I don't pick it. The best thing I've found to pick touch holes with is a clipped feather.
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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2012, 08:07:04 AM »
As I said, I like the Ampco cause it looks like gold alloy and not stainless.

Offline bama

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2012, 03:24:23 PM »
I have used liners on many of the rifles that I have built and half a dozen of Jim's WL liners on hand now. I did not say that I disliked liners or would not use one on a early rifle. I just wanted to know if there were shooters out there that used a straight drilled touch hole and what their experiance was. Did they feel that there was a big diference in speed and reliability.

Personally after using the drilled touch hole I would not hesitate to recommend this to somebody that was wanting an early rifle built.

As far as the effect on accuracy I do not feel that a drilled touch hole hurts. I have shot my rifle on targets out to 150 yds with good results. The biggest problem with the accuracy was the opperator and not the rifle.

Mr. Everret thank you for your comments and the information on a tapered TH. I may give this a try on my next early rifle.

Thanks to all for your comments. I learned that a number of people of did not like to pick their vents after charging the gun. I had not considered this to be as safety concern before because I use a non sparking brass pick, but after thinking about it I will change my shot routine to pick before loading and see what the results are.

Again thanks for all the comments
Jim Parker

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Offline Keb

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 05:26:45 PM »
I just shot the last gun I made yesterday. It's a .62 smoothbore barrel from M&G (Larry Zorn). I just drilled a .062" touch hole. It hangs every time unless I pick it. Then it goes off like 'white lightnin' (pun intended) & I don't even need a special tap (cough-gouge-cough). :/

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 07:04:53 PM »
Does anybody discount that 18th century muskets and trade guns had straight drilled touch holes?
Straight drilled touchholes on common muskets of the 18th century were considered "OK" in a situation where misfires could be quite detrimental. 

Until someone shows us some original Kentucky rifles without evidence of being reworked, having touch hole liners, or internal coning, it is appropriate to assume they did not.  Any other hypothesis is wishful thinking.  People get mixed up between what they want to believe and what there is evidence for.  There's no logic to "you can't prove they didn't".

This does not mean all the white lightning lovers need to get defensive or ticked off.  Just say, "I like 'em, they work, customers like 'em too; that's why I use them."

The NMLRA was born of competitive shooting and most of today's longrifles reflect a blend of desire for maximal accurate performance and historical accuracy.  It's OK.


The trade guns were not considered to be particularly effective and the various European Gov'ts surely did not want the natives armed with anything that was superior to what their military used. Though the trade gun was about a toss up.
The Musket was pointed like a shotgun by most of the rank and file. I suspect the reason that they shot a few volleys then charged was due to the muskets becoming unloadable in a few shots with paper cartridges and the typical 18th c powder. So the vent was not terribly important and could be 1/8". There are numerous photos of self priming British shotguns with large vents in the Gold or Platinum liners. Accuracy is not important in a SB.
Other that having the some of the same parts there is little in common between a rifle and a musket. The trade gun was designed to be a throw away when it got to rusty or worn or broken.
Part of the wiping process often mentioned in the 18 c rifle loading process may have included the vent. Boone used a feather when shooting squirrels with Audubon.
I use the flintlocks I have as hunting arms. There is little more frustrating that working an hour or so on a stalk and having the gun flash. I have had this happen twice that I recall with a clean gun but never with one of my design liners or a Chambers. Some liners may be no better, if as good, as  plain vent.
I would be interesting to see if there was a reliability difference in straight drilled holes of different sizes and a liner like a WL.
I put in a liner (similar to WL) in a barrel and left the vent .040". I shot the rifle 10 shots with no regard to the vent what-so-ever and it did not flash until shot 9. Had I CLEANED around the vent I doubt it would have failed then.
So I use liners. I like flintlocks. I use them for serious purposes. So reliability is important. There are American made arms with English style liners. Thinking these were unknown in America is unrealistic. Thinking they were adopted en mass by makers in the areas away from the eastern seaboard population centers, or even there,  is not realistic either.
Some today are so hung up on appearances that they are apparently unable to even hunt unless dressed "historically correct" for their "persona". I don't have this problem. I will not be seen with a blaze orange weskit. I like FLs. I like hunting with them. The intrinsic value is in the lines, the art and the mechanism. The vent is just a flash hole that has to do its job reliably. I does not change the lines or the art. It does improve function. I consider it a good trade off for having a shiny place on the barrel next to the pan.
 
Dan
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 07:59:29 PM »
so, now that we've covered all that and i learnt a new word (weskit), i'm of the notion to make mine own as illustrated in one of the Longrifle making books.  1/4-28 SS screws are rather cheap.  Not trying to beat Mr. Chambers out of anything, just minimizing cash outlay at the tradeoff of a few hours of bench time.  Is there a thread on here about DIY SS touchhole inserts?

TIA
Hold to the Wind

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Straight touch holes only
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 08:02:31 PM »
Guys,

In response to Dr. Tim, this may get into a bit of detail, but to rephrase the question:

How is an exact diameter hole in metal formed using only tooling and processes available in the 18th c, specifically the flash hole?  Reading the posting by Dan P, certainly if one is building a gun with which the smith does not care if the flash hole is formed carefully (as with the trade gun), then drilling with a single fish tail bit would suffice.  However in using only a single drill bit it is impossible to get the resulting hole of a certain, specific diameter.  A single drill bit, either the 18th c fish tail bit or a modern twist bit will cut a hole that is greatly influenced by sharpening the bit with the point on exact center.  When the point is not on exact center, the bit drills a hole that is larger in diameter than the measured drill diameter, something most folks know.  So we generally drill an initial hole with a smaller drill bit and follow with a drill bit of the proper size to get an exact hole size.  To get a truly precision hole in both diameter and surface finish we follow with a reamer.

Using only 18th c tools the problem of a single drill bit making a poor hole is exacerbated by the wriggle/wobble that is common with both the fishtail shape of the bit, with the hand held brace or bow, and with the very long time required to hand drill the hole.  To follow the initial hole with a second bit is troublesome as this often results in bit breakage as the fish tail bit tends to grab when used as a substitute for a reamer.  Notice that there is no bit surface that contacts the hole wall surface, only the two points at the apex of the fish tail shape.  This leaves us with the use of the tapered reamer which opens the hole to a desired diameter and leaves a very smooth surface.  Looking at the John Wyke tool catalog from the mid-18th c there are very many more reamers than drill bits shown.

A flash hole formed with an 18th c fish tail bit followed by the tapered reamer will be very slightly tapered, only a few thouthanths of an inch in a typical barrel wall.

And, yes I do use 18th c tooling to make my guns, and always when doing a crowd show and tell.  But often I drill lockplate holes for that will be tapped using the modern tooling.

Jim