Author Topic: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"  (Read 9092 times)

Offline axelp

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John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« on: November 14, 2012, 12:25:58 AM »
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 12:26:29 AM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

Offline T*O*F

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 12:51:57 AM »
So how did he fire it when his pyrites wore out.  Don't think I ever saw a trade goods list showing any.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 03:35:42 AM »
Wonder if the NRA is amenable to having that gun measured in detail and photographed from every conceivable angle so some of the builders could accurately reproduce them.  They would be a cool thing to hunt with and have for living history demonstrations. 

Offline KLMoors

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 04:28:43 AM »
Wow, very cool!  I had no idea that gun existed. I am supposedly related to John Alden.

Offline Waksupi

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 04:31:18 AM »
Pyrite is a common mineral.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline Buffaload

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 04:33:47 AM »
I believe its a low grade of iron ore, also called "fools gold"

Offline smart dog

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 05:10:18 AM »
Hi,
Blackley's makes a set of castings for a Brescian lock very similar to the one shown.
http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Lock_Sets_Doglock_Miquelet_and_Snaphaunce.html

dave
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Offline axelp

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 05:42:31 AM »
I actually got this from another forum where they were discussing that the NRA was not allowing anyone to take measurements and they were not even willing to give measurements, because they wanted to have the opportunity to possibly reproduce and sell repro guns at a later date?? (really?)

However, the pics in that article might be enough to get close. I did some measuring/proportioning and figure that the lock plate is around 7" long, and using that, I can see that the oct to round barrel is in the 30" long range. The LOP looks to be quite short. I read that the gun was Italian military and made possibly by Beretta, in the 1600s. and it was originally a 50 cal RIFLE (??)  But the bore measures about 66 cal right now and is smooth.

I bet it would make for a dandy 20g smoothbore. Although a 50 cal rifled wheellock would be just too cool.

I think this would really be a fun gun to shoot.

K
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:43:17 AM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

pd230soi

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 12:53:51 PM »
Another challenge for anything related to the Mayflower is that apparently two ships were named "Mayflower" and traveled to the "New World" within a decade of one another.  So its possible he was on one and the gun or supplies/parts on the other.

Not really important, but I discovered the two Mayflower thing recently.

Cheers.

Offline ptk1126

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 04:31:23 PM »
As a direct descendant of John Alden (and several other Mayflower passengers) I found this
most interesting. I have often thought of trying to replicate a weapon that one of my
forebears might have carried, although I would be more interested in an early flintlock that
could have been in the family during King Phillip's War (1675-76) or King William's War (1689-90),
during which 8-10 relatives were killed. However, I have been unable to find any examples other
than the club butt style that I find exceedingly ugly.

Growing up in Maine, I always disliked the fancy airs that DAR, SAR and Mayflower folks put on,
as though they were descended from royalty, instead of mostly poor immigrants. I was quite
chagrined to learn about ten years ago that I qualified for most of those organizations. :-[
 
All the best
Paul

Offline axelp

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 04:34:20 PM »
in any case, thanks a lot for posting it because its a great looking piece and I think it would be a dandy to handle and shoot.  I am not a builder, but if I scratch up enough money, its definately on my list. If someone ever decides to make one, if the timing is right, maybe he could make two at the same time and I'd buy one of em. No hurry though---my play money is pretty low right now... Just bought a used Shiloh Sharps... ;D

Ken Prather
Galations 2:20

keweenaw

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 05:06:37 PM »
I think there are all sorts of things wrong with this story.  First is that the NRA folks never read the journals of the founders which make pretty clear that other than Miles Standish there were no private firearms in the colony (a fact not too consistent with the NRA positions).  Second is that in 1620 that would have been a very expensive firearm, even on the used market, and Alden would not have been out of an apprenticeship when he emigrated and would have been luck to even own his tools let along an expensive firearm.  Then there is the chain of custody issue.

Tom

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 06:32:30 PM »
One of the members of my gun club was honored at the N.R.A. board of directors meeting, for his youth shooting sports program, in Sept., and toured the national gun museum. He was told while viewing this great gun, that the family home was severely damaged in hurricane Katrina, and the gun was nearly lost. This inspired them to donate it.


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Rootsy

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 07:06:45 PM »
As a direct descendant of John Alden (and several other Mayflower passengers) I found this
most interesting. I have often thought of trying to replicate a weapon that one of my
forebears might have carried, although I would be more interested in an early flintlock that
could have been in the family during King Phillip's War (1675-76) or King William's War (1689-90),
during which 8-10 relatives were killed. However, I have been unable to find any examples other
than the club butt style that I find exceedingly ugly.

Growing up in Maine, I always disliked the fancy airs that DAR, SAR and Mayflower folks put on,
as though they were descended from royalty, instead of mostly poor immigrants. I was quite
chagrined to learn about ten years ago that I qualified for most of those organizations. :-[
 
All the best
Paul

I too am a direct descendant of 2 Mayflower passengers through my maternal grandmother's ancestors and with many of my ancestors having fought for independence I qualify for the same organizations you have mentioned.  But I could never devote the time to completing the requirements and I never felt membership was of such importance as to pay their fees just so I could "officially" be "in the club". 


Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 08:13:35 PM »
I just finished reading Mayflower by Nathan Philbrick and there is some discussion (with sources) about the armament of the early colonist and how they got trounced by the natives early on in King Philips War who through trade were better armed. 

Offline T*O*F

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 09:28:16 PM »
Quote
Pyrite is a common mineral.
Quote
I believe its a low grade of iron ore, also called "fools gold"
That begs the question!  So it chert, but flints were still imported from the old country for centuries.  So, how common was it?  Do you actually think a person, limited to foot travel, could actually just go out and find some on the east coast of America as it existed in the 1600's?

I would be more inclined to think that a wheel lock would be used sparsely and they would have relied on their matchlocks for most yeoman's work.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 12:09:53 AM »
 Being involved with my county museum, I can tell you everything that comes through the door, in the way of donations has a story. I can't tell you how many guns are linked by family legend to, either the Revolutionary War, or the Civil War. Most of them are either of the wrong time period, or a very unlikely caliber.
 Often valuable weapons were willed from family, friends, of fellow travelers, who perished in route. some times families of young pilgrims, if they had the finances would purchase a fine weapon for the traveler, to the new world. So it isn't entirely impossible that a young cooper could have owned such a weapon. But it is unlikely.
 I am reminded of the time I had a friend  take me to a cabin in a neighboring community to look at a shotgun he was trying to buy. The gun turned out to be a .20 gauge side by side, that was a total piece of art. Subsequent research tracked it to having been built for a Belgian prince, of duke, or something. This gun was sculpted from butt, to muzzle. It was more a sculpture than a firearm ( the hammers were bird dogs flushing a bird). The woman that owned it, was given it by an elderly friend, so she could shoot the hawks, that were after her chickens. She quit using it because she couldn't afford shells for it.
 So, you never know how somebody comes by a fancy firearm. 

                       Hungry Horse

SuperCracker

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 12:47:10 AM »
On a note related to the NRA's intellectual property.

If someone were to scale from the pictures (not hard)and make a very good, close replica, would the NRA have ay kind of legal recourse? Do they somehow, by virtue of owning the original, have a legal means to prevent people from closely copying it? Like if I wrote a song that was different, but very similar to an existing song.

I'm sure there are some wonky laws out there about property rights like this. Does anyone know of any solid examples one way or another?

Offline pathfinder

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 04:21:54 AM »
On a note related to the NRA's intellectual property.

If someone were to scale from the pictures (not hard)and make a very good, close replica, would the NRA have ay kind of legal recourse? Do they somehow, by virtue of owning the original, have a legal means to prevent people from closely copying it? Like if I wrote a song that was different, but very similar to an existing song.

I'm sure there are some wonky laws out there about property rights like this. Does anyone know of any solid examples one way or another?

Really? Sue because someone built a gun"simular' to the one you own? I am more and more sure EVERYDAY that I'm getting out of this life at the right time! Modern world sure SUCK'S ( no worry's,still have 30-40 years to go!)
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 05:03:21 AM »
Quote
If someone were to scale from the pictures (not hard)and make a very good, close replica, would the NRA have ay kind of legal recourse? Do they somehow, by virtue of owning the original, have a legal means to prevent people from closely copying it? Like if I wrote a song that was different, but very similar to an existing song.

I'm sure there are some wonky laws out there about property rights like this. Does anyone know of any solid examples one way or another?
Take this for what its worth ;D for I know just enough to get me in trouble. As I understand copyright laws the copyright is to the original builder/writer for a certain number of years, I forget exactly how many but I do remember that some of the documents that I was concerned about were over 100 years old and I didn't have to worry about copyrights. In my opinion a 1600's rifle's copyright would be long expired. i would have no problems copying that rifle, except for the skill required!
Dennis
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SuperCracker

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 07:22:16 AM »
Hey, I know it sounds like a stupid question and premise, but you never know.

I just had a guy who I caught stealing, personally, on video still get unemployment because.....and I quote, "there was no written company policy against theft" so I would not be surprised to learn that somehow copying that gun could get you in trouble.

Offline Long John

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 06:10:30 PM »
Shane,

Once NRA put those photographs on its blog and made them accessible to the public at large the photographic content is in the public domain.  Once in the public domain, the public is free to use the information.  You or anyone else is free to take those photos, scale them and make a copy.  The modern electronic data environment has made a copyright notice a quaint, custome with little value.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

4ster

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 06:33:05 PM »
Hey, I know it sounds like a stupid question and premise, but you never know.

I just had a guy who I caught stealing, personally, on video still get unemployment because.....and I quote, "there was no written company policy against theft" so I would not be surprised to learn that somehow copying that gun could get you in trouble.

Wow!  But after dealing with my state's unemployment insurance bureaucracy (as an aggrieved employer) I can believe it.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: John Alden "Mayflower Gun,"
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2012, 04:46:50 AM »
If I may disregard the Lawyers for a bit, peruse Harold Peterson's Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783 Wheel lock guns appeared to have been used at Roanoke, predating Plymouth, and at Jamestown. In some reference or other there is a photo of a wheel lock plate excavated from Indian burial in, I believe, Eastern Pennsylvania. Some guys got ahold of pyrites for these guns. Peterson shows a nice dog-lock pistol said to be owned, I assume privately, by John Thompson.
It is also interesting to look through Peterson's little paperback Arms & Armor of the Pilgrims
None of this proves or disproves whether John Alden owned that Italian carbine but it sure is a cool looking gun. Were I so inclined to want a wheel lock to shoot it would be that one, having at least some aguable connection with use in the earliest times here.
Memory fails me again, but I seem to recall that 17th century Englishmen had a fondness for Italian weapons. Perhaps in part because there were so few gunsmiths in England at the time.
Yeah, I also have some ancestors that came over on that first ship, disremember the name though it was someone on Mom's side. I understand there still exists a letter by a guy named Bussey (Mom's name), griping about the price of corn during King Phillips's War.