Author Topic: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore  (Read 10619 times)

albatrosdva

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Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« on: November 18, 2012, 07:35:34 AM »
Hi there,
I am new to collecting rifles, I normally stick with old French flintlock military muskets but I bought one at auction for what I think was a good deal but I don't really know. It did not look to have a name on it but I saw a place where I thought there could have been a name and the name Ernst came up. It looks like a I or J in front of it. I can only find one horrible Jacob Ernst rifle on the internet so I would like to know if this is a common maker or an oddity. I know the stock is pretty plain but since he started in the 1750s it could have been made in an older style...purely conjecture I want you guys opinion on this rifle. With the T. Ketland and Co lock I would date it to the so called golden age period but I really don't know about them so could I get an estimate of age, rarity and value for this piece? The barrel is just over 47" and was rifled but is now bored out smooth. I also would like to know opinions on what would be intrusive or too intrusive a restoration of this. I am without question going to make the hammer screw, lock screw and the barrel key lug as right now the only thing holding the barrel is the tang screw. I will also clean off the corrosion at the muzzle as pictured.  I would like to go ahead and make it full stock again since the stock broke off so very short it looks rather absurd to me but what is the understanding of what should and should not be done. I would consider reconverting it but since the cut out where the pan would be goes below what the pan would cover I think that would be too intrusive and would look obvious. Any comments or help in any way are much appreciated. I have less than $400 into it so you can't really hurt my feels one way or other about it. Sorry for the poor pictures of the name it was taken before I cleaned it. I will get another picture of it tomorrow.http://s291.beta.photobucket.com/user/albatrosdva/library/Jacob%20Ernst%20rifle
Thanks
Sam

Offline gibster

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 04:24:16 PM »
Tried to open the link to the pictures.  The photobucket page opens but there are no pictures.

Offline jdm

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 04:35:08 PM »
Could the  first letter be A. ? Adam Ernst (1781-1857). He was a York County  Pennsylvania gunsmith.  I could not bring up the pictures of your gun. not sure whats going on there. At any rate Ernst is a maker of quality firearms and certainly worth saving.  Some of his guns have carved stocks and nice inlays. Yours  may not be as Fancy, but it is worth saving. The wrong kind of restoration could hurt your gun instead of helping it. If somebody could pull up the pics I'm sure you can get sound advice here.
JIM

albatrosdva

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 06:21:52 PM »
Sorry about the pictures. I have never had trouble with photobucket till they updated their page and now I can't get anything to work on it. I will try posting them on here.

albatrosdva

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 06:31:31 PM »
I noticed the link before showed the beta testing sight for photobucket. His is another link to the same album from the classic site. Hopefully that will work better.
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll295/albatrosdva/Jacob%20Ernst%20rifle/

I've added several pictures to show the name cleaned up a little. There was originally something written in front of the name but I can't tell what. I don't think it is Adam Ernst because the s in Ernst is written in a different style from the Adam Ernst found online. I guess they could have changed it but the letter in front of Ernst looks much more like a J or script I than an A.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 06:46:20 PM »
Takes you to the same page with no photos visible

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 07:01:07 PM »
It opens perfectly for me.  I think you have the basis of a very fine longrifle in your hands, and it deserves a thorough, complete and proper restoration.
the work needs to be done by someone who really knows what they are doing - not a hobby gunsmith.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline jdm

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 07:33:40 PM »
Don't understand it. won't open for me either.
JIM

albatrosdva

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 07:58:04 PM »
Got any pointers for listing the photos individually on here?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 08:58:57 PM »
Takes you to the same page with no photos visible
it's your outdated browser.  If you use a different internet browser you will see the pictures.  I can't see it with an old version of windows internet explorer but see it with mozilla.

Sleek looking gun, probably a smooth rifle from the get go.
Andover, Vermont

Offline JTR

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 09:26:53 PM »
I can't get the pics to open either.  :'(

Both Adam Ernst and Jacob Ernest were good makers, and both worth having. If you restore it, have a quality job done, or just leave it as is.

If you can't find a way to post the pictures, email them to me and I'll post them for you.

John
John Robbins

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 09:50:16 PM »
Takes you to the same page with no photos visible
it's your outdated browser.  If you use a different internet browser you will see the pictures.  I can't see it with an old version of windows internet explorer but see it with mozilla.

Sleek looking gun, probably a smooth rifle from the get go.
You my be right, but I'll never know because I have no idea what you are saying.
Figured my just bought computer with Windows 7 would be adequate

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 10:34:26 PM »
Got any pointers for listing the photos individually on here?
Check your email.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

albatrosdva

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 11:17:11 PM »
thanks Dennis. here are some pictures for those having problems. Hopefully the photos aren't too big.












Offline JTR

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 12:37:56 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, that's the signature of Jacob Earnest.
But doesn't really look like one of his guns....

John
John Robbins

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 03:17:26 AM »
Earnest used that same tang carving on another rifle ive handled
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline DaveM

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 04:19:00 AM »
Great find, Sam.   1800 +\ _ maybe? 

BGC

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 04:47:23 AM »
Looking at the sideplate, it looks as if the other lock bolt hole was never drilled into the stock.(might be an optical illusion).  Was it normal for Earnst to make octagon to round barrels on his rifles? Perhaps this was a fowler?? (large bore and omission of a patch box)  I'd say if you choose to restore it, be prepared to pay for it. That old gun needs much TLC.(tender loving care)

albatrosdva

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 07:33:24 AM »
One if my big questions was whether this was originally a rifle and bored out or if it started life as a smooth bore. The barrel is very thick at the breech so that makes me think it was a rifle but it is odd for it to be octagon to round. There are two screw holes and evidently the upper lock screw broke off long ago given the age and wear to the broken areas around the lock mortice since the lock moves when the hammer is pulled back. that is one reason I will make the screws to stabilize it to prevent further damage. Also, since there is the start of the incise carving at the rear ramrod pipe does anyone have any pictures of a similar design, if possible even by J. Ernst, so that I can know what it would have been like?
Thanks
Sam

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 03:45:14 PM »
I believe it started life as a smooth rifle, not a fowler nor rifle. Earnest vs Ernst is a real possibility too. Have to do some digging to refresh my flagging memory, but the trigger guard looks more like Earnest to me.

Offline tallbear

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 05:09:15 PM »
I'm going to agree with JTR here.This does not look like the work of Jacob Earnest of Westmorland Co..It may be a restock of his barrel but the sideplate doesn't look like his either.While the tang carving subject shows up in Jacobs work his execution is far better than this example.

Mitch

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 08:04:05 PM »
I also agree that it doesn't look like his other work, but I can't rule it out altogether.  It is not
completely dissimilar.  The other
Earnest's I have seen were not as early as this one, the gun is signed, the tang carve and tang
itself is his style though not as well executed.  Can't think of why a barrel signed by him would
have made it's way onto an earlier rifle than the other examples.  Thinking it could be an early
example before he fully devloped his skills/style.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline JTR

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 08:56:51 PM »
Jacob Earnest is one of the really fine late makers and lived from 1805 to 1884. So he wouldn't have made a gun much before 1825, so the T Ketland lock doesn't really fit with one of his new made guns. Also, the barrel tang doesn't have the same spear point shape that Earnest used. In fact, the tang looks much more like the one used by Adam Ernst, but with the shoulders filed off.

One problem with the signatures of A Ernst and J Earnest, is that both guys signed their names as They thought they were spelled, and not how We think there were spelled, so both last names look like pretty much like Ernst.

So if the name on the barrel is Jacob Earnest, about the only similarities to his work are sort of the trigger guard and the tang and tang carving, but neither of these is of the quality that Earnest should have done.

And if the barrel name is that of Adam Ernst, he was an excellent York Co maker, and this gun doesn't look like his work either, except maybe the trigger, which isn't as fine as the curled triggers he generally made.

The other choice of maker is in fact Jacob Ernst, possibly the son of Adam Ernst, and he's the one that most likely made your gun. Check out Whiskers York book, pg 61.

Sorry for the confusion!,
John
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 03:00:09 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Buck

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Re: Jacob Ernst rifle as it is and to restore or not to restore
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 08:58:58 PM »
The stock architecture, trigger guard and side plate look like the work of Jacob Ernst, not Jacob Earnest. 2 different smiths. Ernst was from Paradise Township York County.
Look in "Gunsmiths of York County" pgs. 60,61,& 62 same thing. The rifle on 60 has an octagonal to round barrel with the same exact tang carving, the rifle on the next page is also pictured in "Thoughts" same side plate and trigger guard. Nice find. Its Jacob Ernst.
Buck
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 09:43:14 PM by Buck »