fire syringe

[WadePatton]

According to my limited study on fire starting, the fire syringe was patented in England and France in 1807-after the Europeans learned of them from tribes in "blow-dart country" way out there sommers.

And the kitchen match came about in 1844.  

So that then the fire syringe/piston/pump was actually a household item in civilized areas in the early part of the 1800's.  Wonder if any were used 'round here back then?  Anybody ever look deeper into that?

Yeah i'm making one just now.  Never really played with fire starting, but crisp damp mornings in the deer woods will learn you a lot real fast...or slow depending on how you look at it.

If you've not seen one work, it's basically a miniature version of a diesel combustion cylinder (pre-dates Rudolph Diesel's grand contribution-and likely inspired it).  Summarized: you put charcloth in it, slap it together and the compression ignites the cloth.  

Most of the vids on it are of modern materials and construction.  BUT there's one two-parter where a Semelai (Malaysia) man makes one with only crude tools, a knife and a machete and a screwdriver-which he uses as drill.  His materials are-chunk of wood and a hank of string--that's it.  No thing else (except tinder in the form of charred cloth and a drop or two of water to improve the seal).



They've probably been making 'em that way for hundreds of years if not longer.   Some history: http://www.ehow.com/about_5033227_history-fire-pistons.html

Appears that the ones from our olden days were made of brass--saw some pics somewhere.  

As noted by one observer WRT syringe* vs. matches--a wet fire piston works as soon as you dry it out, and it's very durable.  The only consumable is your tinder and the sealing string might need renewal now and then.  

*syringe is the old word (before diesel engines maybe). Called fire piston by most these days.  neither term turns up anything in search here.

Almost every one i've seen works on the first go-once you get it "tuned".  My tuning is off apparently.  I have this copper tube that makes a dandy whistle, but ain't lighting the cloth yet.  Of course i'm making one just to have one...another arrow for the quiver.

thoughts?

+++ here's a better history, i've only skimmed it: http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html

[Bull Shannon]

I've seen these around for several years now and they come in basic form all the way up to fancy made from exotic wood or other materials.

http://www.wildersol.com/
http://www.minifirepistons.com/fire_pistons.htm
http://www.primalconnection.com/3c3aFirePistons.html
http://www.campingsurvival.com/cobofipiwofu.html
http://www.firepistongear.com/

[WadePatton]

around where?  

I posted this here WRT ALR being a historically-oriented website.  I've not attended any HC gatherings or goings-on beyond this.

I'm not looking to purchase one, it's a rather simple device, and i'll just bet i kin make one happen*.  I kick it up here to discuss it in context with the time period we celebrate.

*presently my groove is allowing too much compression to escape, but my toots are too flat to go back into the shop tonight.  plus the hunting thing.

[Bull Shannon]

No, I don't "get the drift". What does WRT mean?

I haven't attended any historically correct gatherings or other goings-on in person since last year but I am a member of this and other like minded forums where the topic of fire pistons has been discussed for a number of years.  There are several sights that detail the procedure to make one plus they are available commercially, as evidenced by the links that I posted previously.

Since you asked, my thoughts are that these have been discussed on the internet for a number of years already.  They seem interesting to me depending on the type of material they are made of, but I doubt there are any made from Cocobollo or similar hardwoods back in the 1830's, which is the time period that interests me most.

[Karl Kunkel]

WRT = with respect to

[Bull Shannon]

WRT = with respect to

  Ah, now I understand.  Thank you for teaching me that, you really do learn something new everyday.

[WadePatton]

The reckon the trouble is that I don't run around to all the other like-minded websites.

and none of them came up on search--and the history reports that i've read are a bit spotty.

So to which other sites should i tarry to learn about the 1830's?

please do be kind to those who haven't traveled far in such circles.  this is wise i am told.  should i go to a beginners site?

[WadePatton]

WRT = with respect to

yep, there are sites with lists of ordinary internet acronyms.  i learned that one from an older friend 8 years ago.

[Bull Shannon]

The reckon the trouble is that I don't run around to all the other like-minded websites and none of them came up on search--and the history reports that I've read are a bit spotty. So to which other sites should i tarry to learn about the 1830's? please do be kind to those who haven't traveled far in such circles.  this is wise i am told.  should i go to a beginners site?

Here is my favorite, Traditional Muzzleloading on the Cheap, or just TMC; http://traditionalmuzzleloadingcheap.com/forum/index.php  Easy going folks with lots of knowledge who don't jump on anyone's backs if they are new to the sport.  Unless you are aiming for something HC in a strict sense, you'll get a lot of suggestions as to what works, what doesn't and where to find what you're looking for.  They have a few too many topic sections but nobody is perfect.
Then there is Claude's site, The Muzzle loading Forum; http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?fbb_session_id/893e4bb0d6c7dda7e147aa3188f97b70067e8cd4042a4cf978f79f2e3f2b9235/fbb_uid/18314/
Tons and tons of information, many, many threads specific to a particular time period and always a lot of activity.  Sometimes it's hard to find the topic you're looking for and some of the members over there tend to treat newbies a bit harshly.  A few too many "stitch counters" and know-it-alls sometimes with some threads going way off topic for far too long before being locked by the moderators.  However, some of the best craftsman I've ever seen making everything from powder measures to long guns, most love to post the step by step building process.  I don't go to their "everything else" section because it's a haven for Internet rumors and hoaxes even though political topics are supposed to be forbidden.   They do have a section dedicated to the Plains, 1820's to 1860's so my favorite time period and the Alamo is covered.

[WadePatton]

thank you. i'll poke around some when i get a minute.

[Bull Shannon]

There are a couple others that I frequent too.
Horner's Bench-http://thehornersbench.proboards.com/index.cgi
Anything of everything to do with powder horns and similar accoutrments but a little light on the number of new threads. Brilliant craftsman over there as well.
And finally there is the Campfire; http://muzzleloadermag.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x
Kinda middle of the road, good info and for the most part they welcome newbies although there are sometimes thread counters that just need to relax and take a deep breath.
Here is some other places that offer info on the 1830's but are geared towards early Texas and the Alamo specifically.  A little thin on details though, nevertheless a good reference for certain things.
http://www.texianlegacy.com/
http://www.buckskinning.org/groups_tab_rules.htm ;take everything with a grain of salt, very thin on information though.
Really neat pictures and descriptions here but centered in the Rocky Mountains 1820-1840;
http://rockymountainoutfit.com/
Earlier time period but a great blog; http://traditionalblackpowderhunting.com/

[Hungry Horse]

 I was given one of these contraptions, and although it does make fire, it isn't as fast as a good flint, and steel. Having used it several time, and discovering its finicky nature, I'll keep my bright oval, and a good black flint.
 I do suspect that the same science that makes this system work, is the core of the mystery involved with unexplained discharges, while pushing a ramrod down on a loaded barrel forcefully.

                   Hungry Horse

[PPatch]

"...the core of the mystery involved with unexplained discharges, while pushing a ramrod down on a loaded barrel forcefully."

Okay, that's a bit scary, sounds plausable too, can you explan more please?

(feels like I'm hijacking, sorry}

dp

[Hungry Horse]

 The fire piston works much like a model airplane engine. A close fitting piston forces air into a sealed chamber creating intense heat. This is the diesel technology that allows the airplane engine to run without a spark plug. The compression generates enough heat to make the wire in the glowplug cherry red, detonating the fuel air mixture. In the fire piston, the rod, or piston, is wrapped with string, and lightly oiled. The punk is placed in a recess in the end of the piston. A quick thrust down, and back out, creates enough heat the get the punk glowing.  So if your rifle has relatively shallow rifling, and a fairly short barrel, and is percussion, with a patent breech. And you use a metal loading rod, that allows you to drive the patched ball, from the muzzle, to the breech, in one stroke. You're shooting a giant fire piston. All you have to do is get everything  just right, and KABOOM.

                              Hungry Horse

[PPatch]

I shall endeavor not to KA-BOOM my short barrelled, lightly rifled, patent breech cap lock firearm when ramming home a ball with my metal ramrod then.

loved your detailed explanation, thanks.

dp