Author Topic: New England Rifle - need help IDing  (Read 9136 times)

Offline gibster

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New England Rifle - need help IDing
« on: December 05, 2012, 02:18:18 AM »
New England Rifle, unsigned.  The half stock rifle has what appears to be Cherry wood for the stock and for the under rib.  Brass mounts to include the trigger and the trigger plate and with 8-silver inlays.  The wrist is checkered as well as the forend.  There is also checkering behind the cheek piece.  Has a sliver of wood missing from the front of the lock forward.  The barrel is 39 ¼-inches long and has a hooked breech.  It is tapered from 1.100-inches at the breech to 0.974 at the muzzle.  The bore is rifled and mikes to 0.470 caliber.  The percussion lock appears to have been a flintlock at the start of its life, but I think that the rifle has always been percussion.  The only markings on the rifle are on the lock and it is stamped warranted.  The large brass patch box is side opening and is opened by pushing down on the rear hinge tab.  Anyone have any ideas who may have built this rifle?  The box is unique with the way it opens.  Had to remove the box to figure out how to open it.  It individual that I bought this from had no idea how to open it.










Offline Curt J

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 02:26:53 AM »
Fascinating rifle!  It always amazes  me that anyone would put this much detail into a rifle, but not bother to sign it.

Online Shreckmeister

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 03:29:35 PM »
Silas Allen?  Shares alot of features with his work
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline tallbear

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 04:56:13 PM »
Gibster
Great rifle I am a huge fan of these New England rifles.I have a similar rifle( also unsigned) by the same maker I belive.I am basing this off the trigger guard and the architecture.I don't belive it to be a Silas Allen but one of his students.Thanks for the pics.

Mitch

Offline Buck

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 06:15:21 PM »
Great rifle.
Buck

Offline Robby

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 07:20:20 PM »
Very nice, Thanks!!!
Robby
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Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 09:23:01 PM »
This gun is reminds me of the Silas Allen in the Museum.  


http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8209.0

Hurricane
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 09:23:29 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline bgf

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 01:53:20 AM »
Gibster,
I wish I could affort to just create an account for you to buy stuff for me :) -- you always find the neatest stuff.  This one is almost as good (in a different sort of way) as the Tennessee rifle by SK you found. 

I'm a "fan" of the New England rifles, though I know nothing past maybe Silas Allen.  If someone hasn't done a detailed study of them, it seems like a "must do" for someone with an affinity for the area.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 10:33:05 PM »
Thats a wonderful rifle and I quite agree that it was probably made as percussion. The caliber is quite small by NE flint rifle standards... much more common in the late 30s than it would have been in 1820.

At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest I'll add that I think that attributions based on style are almost impossible with NE rifles. Virtually all of the rifle making took place in Worcester county and it is reasonable to presume that all of the makers, and probably most of the potential customers, were familiar with each other's work. I also suspect that many of the parts, certainly the locks and probably much of the brass, was imported and widely available. It would be as if ALL of the Pennsylvania rifles were made in Lancaster county... and virtually every maker knew every other maker.


Dociron

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 06:44:57 PM »
This is definitely a NE rifle but the one thing that makes me not want to attribute it to Silas Allen is the workmanship at the bottom of the patch box.

Allen's work was always so clean on the bottom that I've always marveled at how he accomplished it.

Online Shreckmeister

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 07:07:36 PM »
When I suggested Silas Allen, I didn't have much knowledge of New England rifles.  So many of them
look alike.  This one is signed S. Allen.   Most of them I see are halfstocks, but earlier than halfstocks
showing up in PA?

« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:11:48 PM by Shreckmeister »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 07:55:35 PM »
Maybe Pratt or Tileston?
                                Dan

Offline Dphariss

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 06:15:37 AM »
Looks like it has a flint "patent" hooked breech that has been converted to percussion with a drum.
Bet it was originally flint.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 07:39:27 PM »
 For some reason the furniture, and engraving, reminds me of the work of Wiley Higgins.

                     Hungry Horse 

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 12:38:55 AM »
I'll share my observations of NE rifles... I have 11 of them (more or less)... none quite as nice as that one but I've never been in a position to afford the really fancy ones. I have been looking at them closely for better than 30 years. I think it is a mistake to apply the same criteria used to attribute unsigned Pennsylvania rifles to NE rifles. In the first place, virtually all NE rifles were made in Worcester County Mass and its nearby environs. As a result, it is very likely that every maker, and nearly every potential customer, was familiar with the work of the other makers.

It is also very likely (I am convinced of this) that the overwhelming majority were made for use in volunteer militia rifle companies and we can expect a degree of uniformity that would not be likely where the use was primarily civilian. The flint rifles are almost all about .54 caliber. I have one that is actually .69 (with rifling still in the bore). I've never seen a flint NE rifle smaller than .50 caliber... so, they exhibit a degree of uniformity that is quite unlike anything similar anywhere else in the country.

Then we have the import problem. All of the locks are imported, Birmingham products. Some have the names of Boston hardware or gun dealers on them... but that doesn't alter where they were made. The mounts also appear to fall into readily identifiable types... especially trigger guards where identical examples can be found on singed rifles by different makers. I suspect they were imported as well, or at least many of them were.

There is also a problem with proofs... we presume rifle makers made barrels but there is little or no evidence of this. From 1804 Massachusetts had a proof law that required that barrels "made in Massachusetts" be proofed. The problem is that, while nearly all muskets have the marks, virtually no rifles do. I don't have an answer for this but the implication is that the barrels weren't made there and, therefore the letter of the law exempted them from proof. I'm sure this wasn't the intent... but, for instance, Silas Allen Jr. was actually an appointed prover of firearms and his rifles never have the marks. The only rifled barrel I have ever seen with the proof marks is on a Ruggles underhammer and we know that the Ruggles brothers made their barrels themselves.

There is a serious, scholarly work in progress on this subject, although the emphasis is on the Boston Gun Trade. It will probably be another year or two before its ready for print but we have already come up with a large amount of previously unknown (or unappreciated) data on the subject.

Muskets were commonly advertised as being available in lots of 60... the minimum size of a volunteer militia company. Everyone had to provide their own rifle or musket but its likely that only the volunteer companies were organized enough to purchase them in lots. But... to provide 60 muskets, or rifles, in a timely fashion they either had to be in stock or readily available from outside source. (Which implies they were imported and we know this to be the case for muskets.) I don't think any of the makers had the wherewithall to produce 60 rifles in a month or two...
The Boston rifle volunteers were organized in 1814. The organizers appointed a committee "to find if sufficient rifles are available to arm the company," implying that none (or very few) of the members owned a rifle. As they were all successful merchants and seamen, and all exempt from militia service, this seems likely. Less than 48 hours later the committee reported that there were enough rifles available in the city... I'm not sure you could find 60 rifles in Boston today!

I suspect... and I freely admit I have yet to prove this although I think I am getting close, that many rifles, possibly semi-finished, were imported in batches. If so, this would go a long way to explaining their uniformity. Of course, some were made here. Northern RI maker Welcome Mathewson (who learned his trade in Sutton, Massachusetts) had a peculiar, archaic style that I suspect allows us to make wary attributions but... as an example of how fraught with difficulty this can be, I have a rifle with all the distinctive Mathewson features, except its signed "W. Allen – 1817". I've yet to identify W. Allen though the natural presumption is that he was a relation of Silas and Silas Jr. To make matters even more confusing, the "1817" in the inscription is on top of a filled in rear sight dovetail so the signature cannot have been on the barrel in its original state!

Joe Puleo
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 09:44:29 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2014, 01:38:18 AM »
Last segment of the hinge is the release button?
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline gibster

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2014, 02:01:25 AM »
David R - Yes, the last segment of the hinge is the release for the lid of the patch box.  I had hoped that this may help to ID the maker as it is pretty unique.  But from what I am reading, it is about impossible to attribute a New England to the maker if not signed. 
If anyone wants pictures of a particular area of the rifle that are not shown, let me know and I will do my best to post them for you.  Thanks for all the comments and the information provided.

Offline tallbear

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Re: New England Rifle - need help IDing
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2014, 03:00:49 AM »
Whoever made it it's a great gun.Thanks for the pics !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch Yates