English Half Stock Barrel Configuration

[SR James]

I asked this in my Roller-Twigg lock thread but maybe no one is looking at that thread anymore, so I thought I'd start a new one.  I'm sure someone knows the answers to my questions.

Regarding English halfstocks, I built the rifle below a few years ago.  It has a swamped 31" barrel because my understanding is that such rifles usually had swamped or tapered barrels.  I have seen original halfstock folwers with octagon to round barrels that were also swamped.
My question is, did English halfstock rifles ever have octagon to round barrels or were they only used on fowlers?  If o-r barrels were used for rifles, were they tapered or swamped?

[T*O*F]

My question is, did English halfstock rifles ever have octagon to round barrels or were they only used on fowlers?  If o-r barrels were used for rifles, were they tapered or swamped?

Your question is rather broad.  I think it's a matter of when, not if.  Later rifles like Alex Henry's used an oct/rnd tapered barrel.  Rigby and others used distinctive top and side flats cut into the barrel and they were tapered.  It may also be a function of how barrel technology evolved.  I would venture to say that most percussion era rifles had tapered barrels.

Rigby flats



Alex Henry

[SR James]

I had previously posted this in a thread about using a Bob Roller Twigg lock.  When I re-posted, I neglected to mention I'm referring to flintlock arms, not percussion.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I cannot recall seeing an English flint rifle, original or contemporary, in full or half stock that did not have a full octagonal barrel, usually swamped.  But if you're building one that you'd like to have just a tad lighter at the muzzle, go ahead and use a octagon/round barrel.

[Feltwad]

If you can find a copy of the book English Guns and Rifles by J.N George there are images of Half stocked Flint lock rifles of the 1745-50 period. If you looking at a later date in the flintlock period go for a Manton style of lock with water proof pan and roller frizzen ,these can be acquired from the English company {Blackley and son } see  their webpage.
Feltwad

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

If you can find a copy of the book English Guns and Rifles by J.N George there are images of Half stocked Flint lock rifles of the 1745-50 period. If you looking at a later date in the flintlock period go for a Manton style of lock with water proof pan and roller frizzen ,these can be acquired from the English company {Blackley and son } see  their webpage.
Feltwad

I don't have access to that book Feltwad. Were there 1745 or so Octagon to round rifled barrells on any English rifles that you  know of??

[SR James]

Taylor wrote:
"I cannot recall seeing an English flint rifle, original or contemporary, in full or half stock that did not have a full octagonal barrel, usually swamped. "

Here is a photo of a rifle from my collection of internet photos.  It was clearly labeled as a rifle, not fowler, and it has a check piece in a photo of the other side.  Obviously contemporary, I'm just curious as to whether it is HC.  There was not a full length photo, nor a description, so I don't know whether it is tapered or swamped.

[Lucky R A]

       In 2006 I built the rifle you reference in the above photo.  It had a 58 cal. O/R barrel 34" long.  The barrel was cut down from a standard Colerain 38" O/R rifled 58 cal. barrel.   The stock was figured cherry, stained with lye.  All the silver inlays were sterling silver as was the sideplate.  The gun was built for a client going on a moose hunt.  Unfortinately, due to health reasons he never got to take the trip.  I have no references to support using the O/R barrel, but it worked out rather nicely for this project.  The finished rifle weighed in at 7 lbs, a nice light hunting rifle with some punch.

Best wishes

Ron

[SuperCracker]

I have a book that shows 1 or 2 original mid 18th century french rifles with O-R barrels. I know that's not exactly what you asked about, but lots of things, including gun fashion, can cross over the channel.

[James Rogers]

One has to be careful with some sources concerning rifles of the continental areas.  Some fowling guns with partial grooving have been mistaken for rifled bores. Also for some reason, when translating to English,  some use rifle as the go-to translation for any long gun or that which is not a pistol or cannon.

As far as for English, I believe the late seventeenth century English rifle Mike Brooks used to own from the Neal collection was octagon to round with a cannon muzzle. I believe there are a few breech loading rifles from mid eighteenth and a little earlier in round form with a slight octagonal breech but its not the norm. I cannot recall seeing any English gun with a Spanish form octagon to round with wedding ring style in a rifled bore. For the most part, it appears to me that English rifles of normal flintlock ignition type were made in the Germanic form and seemed to use full octagon swamped barrels at least as far back as the mid eighteenth century.

[Acer Saccharum]

James, I am intrigued by the canon muzzle.

Another question: is the swamped full Oct on English work subtle, or is it more pronounced, as it is on German jaegers?

[James Rogers]

Tom,
Although the barrel on the Turvey rifle in RCA 1 may be from another area of manufacture, it appears from the pictures to have a rather nice taper at the breech. The later examples of the 1780's period period by those like Probin and Twigg seem more subtle.

[SuperCracker]

One has to be careful with some sources concerning rifles of the continental areas.  Some fowling guns with partial grooving have been mistaken for rifled bores. Also for some reason, when translating to English,  some use rifle as the go-to translation for any long gun or that which is not a pistol or cannon.

Yeah, there's a couple more in the same book called rifles that are clearly bird guns. So I don't accept it as a rifle unless it has rear sights.

[James Rogers]

One has to be careful with some sources concerning rifles of the continental areas.  Some fowling guns with partial grooving have been mistaken for rifled bores. Also for some reason, when translating to English,  some use rifle as the go-to translation for any long gun or that which is not a pistol or cannon.

Yeah, there's a couple more in the same book called rifles that are clearly bird guns. So I don't accept it as a rifle unless it has rear sights.

And even then, the continentals used to frequently use rear wrap wing sights on dedicated fowling pieces.

[Don Getz]

If you are going to use an octagon to round barrel, you will find that the octagon portion of the barrel is much longer
than most of the fowlers we are used  to looking at.   Check out the guns shown in "Great British Gunmakers".......Don