Author Topic: engraveing ball (Read 15323 times)

hortonstn · « **on:** December 08, 2012, 03:56:24 AM »

one last question before i dissapear for awile. has any one built a inexpensive engraveing ball?? or know where to get one without sticker shock?
paul

Tom Cooper · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:06:05 AM »

Cut/mill/grind a flat spot on a bowling ball and mount a machinest vise.

docone · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:22:39 AM »

This will give you a read,
http://www.craftsmanspace.com/free-projects/engraving-vice-plan.html
I have a 6" Victor. Smooth!
The new Pepe ones are cranky. Look for an older one if you purchase one.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:08:03 AM »

Bowling ball works well. You could probably mount a small drill press vise on top of a flat of the ball.

Weight is what matters on this kind of thing. The BB serves quite well, I must say.

Gaeckle · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:29:15 AM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on December 08, 2012, 06:08:03 AM

Bowling ball works well. You could probably mount a small drill press vise on top of a flat of the ball.

Weight is what matters on this kind of thing. The BB serves quite well, I must say.

........did you wear that hat to the Engraver's Ball?

Captchee · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2012, 08:01:51 AM »

LMAO , Nice Hat Acer LOL

Funny you should ask . Im in the process of building a new adjustable pedestal for my vice . Which also happens to be a bowling ball vice . So ill 2nd and say that my bowling ball vice is still my favorite.
. What I like is that its big .Its always evolving and easily modified.
Never cared for the machinist vice application on the top .
It started out that way and I soon changed it out and made a self centering type of vice .
Which by the way , after seeing the way Acers vice is set , I think ill modify my vice to a dove tail vs. a T grove .

Also at the time I built my vice , I did not have a turn table . So I set the top of the ball to a double bearing shaft . So the top of the ball spins smoothly

Next came the adjustable pin jaws ..
For those who may have noticed that the separation on my upper jaws don’t match the separation on the main jaws.
Well I found that even with my old GRS vice , that a tapered object just didn’t fit right . So I modified mine to be adjustable . IE I can set the pin jaws so that one side sets at up to +or - 45 deg angle or both sides to + or - 45 deg .
Or I set them at 90 .

hortonstn · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:16:29 PM »

looks like i'm looking for a used bowling ball///
thanks
paul

FL-Flintlock · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:37:59 PM »

What did they use in the 18th century?

kutter · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:29:51 PM »

I used a GRS vise for about 20 years before making my own. I found the GRS wasn't heavy enough. It would vibrate and actually wobble in it's stand when doing heavy hammer work.
Before the GRS vise, I had use a 'Victor' vise,,but it was meant more for jewelry trade work than the heavier steel cutting of firearms work.\

I finally took a bowling ball and cut it in two not quite at the half way mark.
Then I chisiled the core material out. That was a nasty job. The tough but yet somewhat brittle stuff shatters and flys all aver the place. Wear face protection, gloves, ect if you do this. Does a job on the chisel too,,use a less than favorite gouge that you don't mind resharpening a number of times just to get through the job.
My goal was to make room for weight,,in this case lead shot & fibreglass mix.

The vise itself I made from standard size steel bar mat'l I had around. A large round plate to fit over the to came from the base of an old floor lamp and looks cast.
1x1 runners with 1/4" spacers for the channels, a simple 1/2-13(?) screw for the vise. The jaws are about 3x3x3 each. They came from one piece I hack sawed in half. The bar already had a 1/2 width taper milled on one side so they made for a nice opposing top jaw surface.

Everything held together with 1/4 socket screws and the jaws are removeable so I can clean out the area below as the junk builds up in there. The screw for the jaws works in reverse of what is 'normal' 'cause I just linked it to the one moveable jaw. After years of using the thing, I have a tendency to turn other things in reverse now.

All put together and then attached to the bowling ball with J hook bolts thru the plate. The J bolts are seated in a mix of fiberglass and lead shot.
The total weight of the vise is #55. It sits in a wooden framed hexagon with sides that are about 3 inches high. That allows me to rotate it to any angle I want, but it stays put and never wobbles.

The entire vise and frame is on a foot rotated home made 'kick wheel' assembly.
I had use the kick wheel thing with the GRS vise also, so that wasn't new to me. I just needed something sturdier to hold the work.
I also use the vise in a stand up things like bbls that are tough to do sitting down.
A standard bench vise at the right heighth is fine and most European engravers work with nothing else.

I made a sturdy post to the right heigth and set the ball vise on top of that to do any stand-up work.

Simple ball vises were in use in the 18th century and forward. Most were of a single holding screw type with a wide slot cut through the ball to place the work. That would be something someone that did engraving for a living would have. Made of cast iron they came in many sizes. You could still buy them when I started engraving,,maybe you still can.

Pitch bowl was a common holding device. The standard bench vise was and still is commonly used in Europe by firearms engravers. Not so much in the US.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2012, 03:35:55 AM »

For what we do, heavy is the best attribute of a vise. If you're gluing your patchboxes and sideplates to a piece of wood anyway, how fancy does your vise have to be? Hmmm? Not very.

A bowling ball with a flat spot with a piece of plywood screwed/glued to it would work. then you can screw all the smaller blocks to it. When the ply on the ball gets too many holes, chisel it off and glue on a new one.

PPatch · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2012, 03:49:24 AM »

Or, perhaps drill the screw holes and glue in doweling, cut flush, for a bit more milage.

I like this idea Acer. Looks as if I'm looking for a bowling ball too, and a Viking hat.

dp

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2012, 04:27:40 AM »

As others have suggested, if you are driving your graver with a hammer, you don't need to bother with a ball. If you are pushing using your own force or air assist, you need at least a turntable and preferably a ball. A push graver doesn't work well if you can't rotate your work into it.

Captchee · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2012, 08:14:30 AM »

One of my first work surfaces was nothing more then a 4x12 with two 1 inch holes drilled dowel set a dowel to so as to act as an axel . To that I added a round top .. The set up was basically a simple turn table that I could change from flat to a 45 deg angle .
In fact the piece of wood you see my BB vice setting on is the old round top .
What ever I wanted to engrave , was just screwed down onto the rotating surface

If your doing chase engraving having a turntable or ball that doesn’t lock , makes things imposable to use .
But if your doing push engraving or using a pneumatic type hand piece , having a turntable or a rotating vice , is greatly helpful If not a necessity .

Another little item that Jerry Huddleston showed me some years ago , was a center needle for his turn table . Its nothing more then a pointer arm that folds over and points dead center . Use that item he can set the work piece center of the turntable , regardless of where the vice actually sets .

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2012, 04:43:11 PM »

This thread reminds me of an engraver I saw at a gun show, that had a homemade gravers ball made out of a bowling ball mounted on an axle, set in a frame, with a small trailer wheel at the bottom, near his feet. He never moved around the work, he simply moved the work, via his wheel/axle arrangement with his feet. He did pretty nice work too.

Hungry Horse

FL-Flintlock · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2012, 06:03:10 PM »

Where can I find a picture or description of a special rotating or ball vise used by American longrifle makers? Anyone have an estate inventory listing such things?
Thanks,
Mark

Captchee · « **Reply #15 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:34:29 PM »

Quote from: FL-Flintlock on December 09, 2012, 06:03:10 PM

Where can I find a picture or description of a special rotating or ball vise used by American longrifle makers? Anyone have an estate inventory listing such things?
Thanks,
Mark

dont know , you didnt ask that , you ask

Quote

What did they use in the 18th century?

i would doubt you would find such items in a gun makers shop here OR over there for that mater .
If the rifle was made here then I would see no reason for the maker to have a rotating graving ball unless he was a trained silver smith or such .
For that mater even in Europe, very few of the gunsmiths did their own engraving . That would have been guild work .
Here the work IMO is far less trained and more basic even though in some case appealing

StevenV · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2012, 07:57:46 PM »

Here are some pictures of engraving table. I got the idea from Larry Parker, he used to be at Dixon's. Larry used to set up his tables and explain his trade engraving. Very help and giving of his knowledge. I haven't seen him there the last couple of years. Larry sold plans for the table for 10 bucks. I pretty much copied the plans. The table is well over 100 lbs, no vibration. The legs are filled with cement for more weight. The bearing at the top and bottom of the shaft make for extremely smooth rotating of your work.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2012, 09:16:32 PM »

I think it's safe to say a few shops in this country had more sophisticated engraving equipment, such as the balls mentioned. Kuntz and Voglers are examples that come immediately to mind. The vast majority of work is much simpler and no doubt executed simply by chasing or driving the graver with a hammer. A simple vise works well for work holding with this method. This isn't to say that more sophisticated shops such as those mentioned didn't use chasing techniqes, but rather used both methods due to the complexity and sophistication of their work. Push engraving works best in softer materials such as silver and the designs are typically composed of a series of carefully shaped arcs. Look at English silver engraving of the 18th century for examples. This is where a ball really has it's place.

Captchee · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2012, 01:42:29 AM »

there is alot of very fine work done with chase gravers and push gravers that isnt done on a ball or turn table .
I would bet that alot of the heavy relief work was done with chase

here is a video from Beretta .
while its more of an advertisement , it does show some short clips of work being done with chase and push

steve .

you might find this clip interesting
i never could get the hang of the foot type turn tables .

kutter · « **Reply #19 on:** December 10, 2012, 01:43:45 AM »

This is a modern mfg'r, but the same idea as most of the early engravers 'ball vices'. Simply an iron ball w/a slot cut though a portion of it. Usually one but sometimes two thumb screws to hold the work. It sets in a leather ring or pillow that's filled with sand or sometimes lead dust/fine shot. Sometimes in a wooden ring that's smooth and waxed if the engraver wants the vise to rotate more easily while they cut.
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/linc/item/893953/

Many of the jewelers vices were quite small,,about the size of a softball. So you could get a good hold of the vise with your off hand, still turn it and use your thumbs opposed while cutting w/a graver to prevent slips.

Very large awkward work was often simply held down in a nesting of weighted (shot or sand filled) bags. The engraver working around the piece instead of the piece revolving in front of the engraver on any sort of rotating vise set up.
Loops, circles, script letters, ect in engraving are all done in pieces or sections. The skill of the engraver makes them appear as one continuous line through the use of wide and narrow cuts. The need for a continuous rotational movement & cut of the tool against the work is actually not what you're after.

I believe, and it's just my guess,, the engravers blocks (vise) that utilize a bearing so the tightened jaws can revolve as is commonly used today wasn't seen till the mid 1850's, perhaps a little later.
Some of older US made vises of this type have 1880 & 1890 pat dates and are usually quite small by todays engravers standards. Again they appear to be more for a jewelers trade than the gun engravers trade.

I think the old standby Bench Vise was the common holding tool of the gun engraver of the day. It remains so in many parts of the world and beautiful work is done off of them.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2012, 03:09:48 AM »

One of the most common tools the backwoods gunsmith used to hold his work for engraving, was a pitch bowl. A round bottomed bowl, often of wood, filled with a black material, who's major component was pitch. The bowl rested in a leather donut, filled with sand or shot. They work just fine. Simply warm the bowl up, until the pitch gets sticky, and push you project firmly in place. I have had to warm the pitch back up, to get thin pieces out of it without distorting them.

Hungry Horse

FL-Flintlock · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2012, 02:51:48 PM »

Sorry, not trying to beat a dead horse (or a hungry one either) but I'm curious to know if anyone has some kind of documentation showing that common colonial gunmakers used specialty engraving equipment ... not counting those who farmed-out the work, just considering the shops where raw materials/parts came in and a gun went out.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2012, 05:01:13 PM »

I think the engraving tools of colonial America were just what the smith could make himself. So, that being said, gravers, hammers, and maybe a pitch bowl, probably were the extent of their tools. I do believe, that if as some say, the furniture on most long rifles got engraved in place on the rifle, you would see more signs of slips, and mistakes, than we do as students of the craft, and collectors.
I believe that any specialized engraving equipment, like an engravers ball, would have been found in a jeweler's, or silversmiths shop, rather than a gun shop. Many makers of early guns use the barest of embellishment on their product, and often show little knowledge of formal engraving techniques. There of course are some glaring exceptions, but who's to say that these guns weren't engraved by a professional metalworker for the smith.

Hungry Horse

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #23 on:** December 10, 2012, 05:32:54 PM »

Did Kuntz engrave his work on the gun? I doubt it. He may have engraved it off the gun. Which leads to the question: did a rotating table get used for engraving?

There are several spots where the engraving line runs off the patchbox. Both you and I know that the graver cannot go around the outside edge of the work without slipping into the wood. I argue that the patchbox edge was filed to shape AFTER engraving. But that is getting off topic.

docone · « **Reply #24 on:** December 10, 2012, 07:10:07 PM »

I believe, the older engravers on firearms, had a stationary vice and they moved around the vice itself.
I watched a demo of a person doing this and it worked quite well. He was using a chasing hammer and handmade graver.
He got great results.
He screwed the piece to a piece of wood that had wood at a right angle for gripping. That was then put into the vice.
He did well with that.

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Author Topic: engraveing ball (Read 15323 times)

docone

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