Author Topic: Diluting Danglers stain  (Read 8070 times)

Rick G.

  • Guest
Diluting Danglers stain
« on: December 10, 2012, 12:03:23 AM »
Can the Danglers stain be cut with water, and can it be used with aqua fortis?  I'm staining a new rifle that has really nice curl and don't want to screw it up.  :D

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2012, 03:37:56 AM »
It's a spirit based stain,de-natured alcohol is the vehicle. I suppose you could over stain the Aqua-Fortis after the heat. i wouldnt put A/F over a stain. Never done it,but why take a chance when you dont have to. Test on scrap if you need to know.
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 03:53:21 AM »
spirit based stain over aqua fortis after the heat works if you need it to add a tone to the wood the aqua fortis didn't produce. 

Offline StevenV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 05:29:49 AM »
I have used nitrate of iron/ aqua fortis with Laurel Mt. Forge stains and have gotten great results. Laurel Mt. Forge is also diluted with alcohol. I have never used Dangler stains. The gun was finished with files and then rubbed down once with alcohol, dried and then scraped. I applied nitrate of iron liberally and allowed to dry.
 After 12 hrs. I applied Laurel Mt. Forge Honey Maple liberally. I have gotten better results with nitrate of iron by letting it dry longer up to 24 hrs. before applying heat source.
 After another 18 hrs. I went to the kitchen stove red hot burner and "attivated" the nitrate of iron.
Then I went to the 0000 steel wool vigorously over the entire stock.
Finally I applied linseed oil
. Very happy with results and have used this combination on more than one gun with great results. The picture does not do the gun justice the light source is the cellar at night with overhead fluorescent. I still have to finish the metal and do some engraving then reassemble for some pictures outside in the sun light.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Tennessee
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 09:34:22 AM »
I vote Steven's post Reply of the Week!

thanks for that.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 04:53:31 PM »
I would have applied the aquafortis, let it dry, then applied heat.    You could then wet a portion of the gun to get an idea of what the finish will look like.    At this point you can over stain with anything, the aquafortis did not seal the wood...
Don

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5564
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2012, 07:21:14 PM »
I usually use aquafortis, after using chromium trioxide, since one reacts with one part of the curl, while the other reacts the other part. It seems to give the curl more depth, and less muddiness. I alway neutralize these acids to prevent the greening effect. I most often use linseed oil, turpentine, and bees wax, as a finish. But love the striking beauty of a few hand rubbed coats of red violin varnish, when the gun, and architecture, warrants it.

                 Hungry Horse

Rick G.

  • Guest
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »
Whats the best way to neutralize the aquafortis? Also the directions say that the wood will swell. When should one re-install the inletted parts?  Thanx.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19434
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 09:35:21 PM »
I make sure I don't need more AQF and have the color from blushing with heat that I want.  Then I wash with water liberally then wash with a solution of baking soda (dissolve until you can't dissolve more then add water to get the last bit dissolved).  I slather it on with a brush.  I let that sit for a bit then wash in water 2x.  The wood kind of swells but that just helps fill all those pesky inletting gaps.    I let the gun dry at least 2 days before evern thinking about finish.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4462
    • Personal Website
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2012, 11:20:23 PM »
I have not seen a need to neutralize aquafortis (ferric nitrate).  I've experienced no problems at all from not neutralizing and would rather not soak the stock anymore than necessary with water based products.  If you are using mixtures that are very acidic and the acid isn't spent, you may run into more problems though.  I know of  several well respected builders who don't feel feel the need to neutralize either. 

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5564
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2012, 11:52:53 PM »
I'm more worried about the acids than the water. I've seen to many green rifles, and beautifully figured pieces of maple, that have gone to black, from unneutralized acid stains, over time. I use enough acid, and heat, to color my stock a shade or two darker than I want it to be finished. Then I neutralize it with baking soda and water. After it has had time to dry good, I whisker sand it again. The color stays put, and doesn't turn green, and the sanding usually brings the color back to where I want it.

                       Hungry Horse

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4462
    • Personal Website
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »
Blah Blah Blah...  Heard it all before.  They need a little icon with a head shaking side to side in frustration.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19461
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 12:16:14 AM »
Quote
I have not seen a need to neutralize aquafortis (ferric nitrate).  I've experienced no problems at all from not neutralizing and would rather not soak the stock anymore than necessary with water based products.  If you are using mixtures that are very acidic and the acid isn't spent, you may run into more problems though.  I know of  several well respected builders who don't feel feel the need to neutralize either. 
I have used aqua fortis on probably 30 rifles and I have only neutralized one of them and decided it wasted to much time waiting for it to dry. Never had any problems with the ones I didn't. The oldest AF stained rifle I own is now 12 years old with no problems.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3161
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2012, 12:18:10 AM »
A few years ago I asked Jim Hash if he ever neutralized when I read about many here doing it. He said he never did such a procedure. He makes his own at 5:1 and has been applying to guns non-neutralized since the early '70's with no ill effect.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 12:20:47 AM by James Rogers »

Rick G.

  • Guest
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 12:29:34 AM »
Thank  you everyone for your tips and suggestions. UPS came today and I now have everything I need.  This is my 1st flintlock staining project so wish a newbie luck. I'll take pictures as I go along........

Offline StevenV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 01:42:46 AM »
Rick you are doing a few sample pieces of wood before the stock and take notes? By no means looking to take sides but I use Aqua Fortis all but exclusively to stain. The first one neutralized with baking soda, the rest not. Not a chemist but,  is not the aqua fortis already neutralized after dissolving metal shavings in it? Just asking   Steve   Thanks Wade just trying to add my two cents were possible to a site that is second to none!

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 06:01:45 AM »
Blah Blah Blah...  Heard it all before.  They need a little icon with a head shaking side to side in frustration.

Amen Jim,Amen!
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9919
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Diluting Danglers stain
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 06:50:51 PM »
If you properly raise the grain before staining there is no need to do anything to the stock after staining is complete. The grain must be raised with every sanding grit. I tend to start while doing the final shaping with files and scrapers.
Trying to whisker a stock that has been stained will produce white edges.

I tend to neutralize. However, I also wonder if this is needed with a well saturated stain, where iron is added till there is no further reaction is seen. Then we have acid free or near acid free finishes. If the linseed oil base, for example, is acid neutralized as it needs to be, will this tend to counter any acid remaining in the stock?
If an acid stain is used and not neutralized there are too many accounts of stocks turning black and parts rusting after installation in the stock for me to risk it.
Chromium Trioxide gives me the creeps thinking about it.
In the late 19th and early 20th, when mass produced wood finishing products really kicked in a great deal of the technology of shop made stains and finishes were lost. You can see this from the silliness that can be read in Gunsmithing/Stock finishing writings of the 30s-40s-50s-60s and later... Applying Bar Top Varnish then  working it back with a buffing wheel. Coating Linseed Oil with chassis grease to "dry" it.  Spending a month on a stock finish etc etc. Much of this carries on today.
It has nothing to do with what was done in the past and in most cases the modern stains and finishes have serious shortcomings in the long term. But people are CONVINCED that "new" has to be better. This is true in one way. If the makers don't CLAIM its better why would anyone by it?
So its "better", "new and improved", "easier to use" (in stock finishes this almost never the case), "water proof" (laughable in virtually all cases) or what ever else the seller can think up.
I have seen old guns that were Linseed oil varnish finished that have had all the finish worn away. I have seen others for the 1870s for example with a lot if not all the finish left. Under magnification its possible to see brush strokes or perhaps "finger prints" from the palm of someones hand.
These guns, like the varnish finished Kentucky and Hawken rifles of the past were "painted" with a heavy bodied varnish that was too viscous to soak in or run in thin coats. It simply lay on the surface and dried to a shine. One coat finish.
A lighter bodied boiled oil or varnish (anything that dried to a shine back in the day was "varnish" spirit or oil) will soak in. A gun or rifle stock can be painted will all this that is will soak up over the period of an hour or two, be wiped dry, assembled and is ready to deliver. This finish will last for years. On walnut it will be pretty dull, but on maple it will shine up with handling and look better in a week than it does new.
I suspect that a lot of the "grease" (dull) finished guns were done in just this way.
I constantly see people here who grossly over think and overwork stock finishing, some of this is from lack of experience, some is from "new and improved" products. Using "oils" or "varnishes"  that are 70% Stoddard Solvent and/or other toxic/semi-toxic solvents for example, nearly as viscous as water.....
So its going to take 10-30 coats to make a finish.... Most of what is applied goes into the atmosphere, or the finishers lungs.  People should get an MSDS on any of this stuff if they have any curiosity as to what they are breathing.

Yeah, this has all been said before.
Still there are always new people.
Then as a Chief Pilot once told me when I was thinking I was talking too much to student pilots in flight; "Thats OK they only hear 1/2 of what you say anyway" (CFI-I 21447xx).

Dan

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine