Author Topic: swivel breech-general info  (Read 15436 times)

Offline WadePatton

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swivel breech-general info
« on: December 12, 2012, 08:06:01 AM »
A search or two didn't turn up much, so i thought i'd just ask out loud.

Can someone or two give a sketch or brief historical overview of swivel-breeched guns.  Things like: Where and when did they originate? Given that they are now and ever were relatively expensive items, were they ever "common" or familiar to most shooters? Guard vs. Lever?  Military?  etc.

and or also some thoughts on their proper/practical bores/cals and combinations.

I am aware of the current action builders/kit/book sellers and have seen several of the originals offered here and there for sale-as well as some of the contemporary work done by those who populate this place.

I will be buying the book on construction listed in these classifieds.  that's the most economical part!  ;D

« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 03:29:34 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 09:02:51 PM »
Swivel breech rifles have long held a great fascination for me too.  As a result, I have studied the images of original rifles in all of the books I can procure, as well as handled some originals and contemporary examples at Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair.
I'd hazard a guess, and say they originated in Germany.  At least, that seems to be the birthplace of most of the original European rifles I've studied.  Having two barrels, I also think it can be said that they are heavier than a soldier would want to carry, and too, more costly than a common man could afford.  So military use as an issue rifle is out.  I would be surprised though if some of them here in North America did not see martial employment.  A fair number of original swivel breeched rifles have survived and are in collections.  That may be partly because they were of more value than a common single barreled arm, and so were better cared for.  But that's speculation and supposition, as is most of my rambling.
Most of the flint era rifles appear to have a trigger guard latch, ei:  the for'd section of the guard moves rearward to allow the barrels to be rotated.  On some original percussion rifles, there is a pin for'd of the guard that is pulled rearward to accomplish this.  On another percussion rifle, there is a button on the breech tang that is depressed to release the barrel's for rotation.  I saw an original at a gun show many years ago that had a very simple plate that rotated vertically in the tang to unlatch the barrels.  Nicholas Hawk, who made some wonderfully decorative swivel breech rifles and some plain ones too, used a latch that involved pulling the entire trigger guard rearward as a barrel latch.  Dave Waters has written a well illustrated book (for sale in the commercial forum) a copy of which resides in my library, that features a side lever opposite the lock to disengage the barrels.  So whatever device you can imagine is probably correct, as it seems they've all been tried before.
I intend to build the Wm. Antes swivel breech rifle, and to that end, I've procured two .54 cal John Getz barrels, a lovely piece of English walnut, the correct butt plate and I've made a guard based on another of his longrifles, as the guard on the swivel rifle is missing.  I have all of the lock parts for the two flint actions and will make the plate and internals myself.  Also, I've made preliminary drawings of the action, preparatory to diving in to the build.
But I've got some obligations to deal with first, so it's a future project, and one I continue to revel in.  If you're looking for examples of good contemporary work, Mark Wheland built a wonderful Bonewitz rifle a few years ago, and whose pictures were posted here.  Also, a Berks Co. rifle by Randy Steffy if you can find his pictures - a grand rifle.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 09:28:26 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 11:16:11 PM »
For your info Wade: Dave Price at The Flintlock Shop makes swivelbreech rifles

http://www.davidpriceflintlocks.com/index.html

Some nice pix on the site.

dave
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 11:18:00 PM »
According to a biography of Simon Kenton written by Edna Kenton, Simon had a swivel breech. Edna uses the German term "wender" when writing about this.

Daivd Price, on ALR, makes REALLY COOL swivel breeches.  He is beyond my means, but maybe one of his kits is possible.

http://davidpriceflintlocks.com/
Regards,
Pletch

PS looks like somebody types faster than I do.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 11:19:02 PM by Pletch »
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 12:35:51 AM »
I don't know for sure who developed the swivel breech system, but I do know the French were using the system around the mid 17th century or perhaps even a little before.  Marcou shows the system in his design prints published in 1657.  The flintlock originated in France around the end of the first quarter of the 17th century, so it likely came into use very soon after the flintlock's inception.  My money is on it being a French development.  A safe bet for any 17th century technology.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2012, 05:31:32 AM »
The Swivel breech is nearly as old as the true flintlock.
A quick look through Lenk's book indicates circa 1630-40 for the early versions. The 1650s versions are very "modern" looking in most features.
So 1650 is very solid. I am sure some predate 1640 but dating things to within 10-20 years? For the purposes of Colonial American arms the design is plenty old enough.
Probably the earliest surviving "Wender" I know of would be the Antes. It could date to 1770 but again its just not datable to that precision.

Dan
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Offline JTR

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 06:46:41 AM »
Wade,
I have a Nicolas Hawk swivel that's pictured in the library here, but I also have additional pictures of the rifle taken apart, that shows the swivel works, barrel release etc.
I'd be happy to email them to you if you'd like to take a look.

John
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 07:10:44 AM »
Thanks yes I've seen plenty and have designs on buying the book offered for sale here--for the library.

No don't bother with pics, but thanks again.

I just hadn't found much discussion of their development and use, especially With Regard To (WRT) their application as an American Longrifle per the period of focus at this forum.  AND i knew there'd be some deeper knowledge here than a common wiki.

A slight side comment/query is that I saw one at GunsAmerica or Gunbroker recently- paired with a pistol and offered at ~11k the pair.  I failed to copy the pic and now it's gone, but that one had the most gorgeous piece of wood on it I have ever seen[period].  Yes the contemporary (and historic) makers do hang great pieces of wood from the as a matter of course, but that one was just crazy spectacular.  If anyone has a pic I'd really like to see it again.  It was up there in Oct or Nov I'd guess.  (this could be PM'd to avoid derailing thread)

Further discourse on the SwivelGun welcomed.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 07:50:33 AM »
In my experience they are less accurate than single barreled Kentucky's but not horribly so and are capably hunting rifles. I have won some money with mine at matches.
They offer a fast second shot but there is a weight penalty my 50 cal with 40" barrels weighs 11 pounds but since most of my other rifles weight 10 or so it is not a big difference.
It is very nice offhand since I like heavy rifles for this anyway.

Dan
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Dave Waters

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 05:31:11 AM »
Wade, I don't mean to toot my own horn but

you might check out www.swivelbreech.com

Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 03:32:29 AM »
Wade, I don't mean to toot my own horn but

you might check out www.swivelbreech.com
Yes, yours is the book to which i refer above.  I was not aware that anyone else was selling how-to build a SB books anywhere.  I've poked every nook and cranny at swivelbreech.com and as said before, will push the "buy" button precisely when the budgetary planets align.  ;)

A swivel short-arm would vastly reduce first-attempt expenses i'm sure, less feet of bbl and less miles of wood. 

David, can you point out the historical aspects or deviations therefrom in the SB arms you make?  Do you make any of significant variance than you teach?  Has your design* evolved over the years that you've been making SB's? 

*yes i know that technique can evolve w/o changing design.

Thank you kindly.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 03:49:25 AM »
In my experience they are less accurate than single barreled Kentucky's but not horribly so and are capably hunting rifles.

This baffles me as we all know (or should) that the double-bbl gun with its single sight over two bbls is only "properly" regulated at one distance, whereas, the swivel breech utilizes separate sights each bbl, and theoretically could be as accurate as a single.

Do you shoot both bbls for matches?  If so, could it be that ultimate accuracy would require developing loads independently even on a twin-bbl'd gun (where each is same bore, not mixed in size or rifle/smooth?

You know that a revolver will nearly always have a few chambers that print better than at least one or two of the others, attributed to cylinder/bbl alignment variations. Most folks don't go to this level of load development/testing though.   ;D

But that there's noting to align but the cock and pan as i understand it so far.  If it's not bbl/load variation, then it must be a rigidity issue?  (see all the machinist nodding).  

Fill us in on your single vs. double (SB) accuracy observations please thanks.  David my have some ideas here too.  

I'm a hunter first, but what good is a SB if you can't take home the (match) bacon too?

As far as weight, it's always lighter than two rifles. pow, pow ;)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 04:21:00 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 04:02:50 AM »
For your info Wade: Dave Price at The Flintlock Shop makes swivelbreech rifles

http://www.davidpriceflintlocks.com/index.html

Some nice pix on the site.

dave
yes, the one in the auction has wood on it like these, but maybe was walnut-it was more "complicated" than maple.  oh well.

trust me, i've seen everything that comes up from normal internet search activities.

think how this spectrum of gun nuttism would be different if Dan Boone had toted a flipflop gun.

thanks.
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 02:19:48 AM »
I've always shied away from a swivel rifle because of the weight.

Now a swivel pistol ????????? That may be something else again.

Online rich pierce

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 03:18:58 AM »
Action bedding is a big deal with centerfire target shooters.  It's because they do not want the barrel to move.  A swivel gun could theoretically not be as accurate as a fixed barrel gun just as a gun with a hooked breech is generally not favored for an ultimate target gun.  The barrel can move in relation to the stock if there is any slop in the action, while the ball is still in the barrel.

Andover, Vermont

Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2012, 03:39:05 AM »
Maybe that's what Dan is talking about-ultimate bench-rest precision. 

Not going to be an issue as methinks i'm done with rested shooting except for load development and sight regulation.  Otherwise i'll just be chasing trail targets and woods critters.

thanks.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 08:17:36 PM »
Page 376, Chapter 39, The Gunsmith of Grenville County,revised, The Swivel Breech.

Peter gives a pretty good run-down of the critter.  He also indicates that he has a "strong interest" and is planning to do the research for a book devoted to such guns.  

Power to PAA! 8)


also just bought Mr. Waters' Building a Swivel Breech  (swivelbreech.com)

here's his pistol...now what about carrying these things?  what's HC?

« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:37:36 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 10:03:31 PM »
Maybe that's what Dan is talking about-ultimate bench-rest precision. 

Not going to be an issue as methinks i'm done with rested shooting except for load development and sight regulation.  Otherwise i'll just be chasing trail targets and woods critters.

thanks.

I am talking about wining matches. Rest in particular. Before getting the wrong idea remember that in Colonial Times  and long after off hand shooting was thought to be a "poor test of the gun and the marksman" paraphrased but right from the 1790s or so.

The Swivel breech while is will win now and then is not as consistent as a single barrel rifle it has more variables. Also if the rifle is made to be a match rifle I lock the "hook" on patent breeches with a screw. It removes a variable.
My swivel is very sensitive to where its rested for example. I would also admit that I have vision problems.

Dan
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whetrock

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 11:32:06 PM »
Also if the rifle is made to be a match rifle I lock the "hook" on patent breeches with a screw. It removes a variable.
...
Dan

Dan, can you elaborate just a bit about this screw? I can guess at how you do this, but nothing better than an explanation straight from the source.
whetrock

Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 11:46:46 PM »
Gotcha Dan, rested match shooting is probably the last thing i'd employ a SB to do.   I'll likely start with a short one-but that's maybe three guns "down the bench".

wp
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Dave Waters

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2012, 03:44:37 AM »
Wade, Thanks for buying my book and posting the pic of my pistol. I'm not sure where to chime in on this thread but I have do a pic of swivel "pistols" from a 1971 edition of "The Gun Digest" which the article writer (Merril K. Lindsay) says were made before 1637 in Brescia, Italy by Lazarino Cominazzo. They have 14" barrels and are 22-1/4" OAL. (More like carbines than what I call pistols)

From my limited research I do know that there were a number of variations as far as how they un-locked the swivel and how they mounted the barrels to the swivel plate.

My approach uses a modified hook breech which has a ball nosed set screw that locks the hook to the front swivel plate. This screw acts against the "hook" (actually a 10 deg. ramp) that pulls the barrel back against the front swivel plate and locks it in place. Each barrel is mounted separate from each other. This approach allows each barrel to be removed from the gun for cleaning without dissembling the swivel action or removing any of the lock parts. This also exposes the inside surfaces of the pan area allowing a more detailed cleaning with a Q-tip. Re-assembling is just as easy and the ball-nosed set screw working against the ramp pulls the barrel back into place a tight as new.

I don't claim to be an authority on swivel breech guns (or much else for that matter.) But, I have built 13 so far using this design.

I built the rifle pictured in the book first. Then built another for a relative. After that I built the pistol shown. FYI, the pistol took about as long as the first rifle. Ole’ #1 and the pistol were first builds and required development. They generally get quicker the more you do. I even tried making 6 actions at once thinking that would speed things up. But to get the fit I want they must all be fitted by hand. There goes the time. As I built more I also made fixtures and drill jigs so I could repeat operations on later builds.

The rifle swivel plates are 1-3/4” high whereas the pistol plates are 1-17/32” high. The concept is the same throughout but the side plates must be different because of the shape of the stocks. Both use L&R Manton (Bailes) parts. All L&R parts are used but all are modified to adapt to the use. I have done them 13/16” barrels or 7/8” barrels on this same height rifle plates. On the pistol I had to mill equal amounts off the inside flats so I could get 13/16 swamped -oct to round barrels. Once I even made a 28 gage smooth over a .25 cal rifle. That one is pictured in John Shippers “Engraving Historical Firearms” book. I did the barreled action and Bob Harn did the rest. Bob’s work is second to none in my opinion.

You ask if my design evolved. Just on paper. Once I settled on what I wanted it seemed to work well. So I stuck with it.

Didn’t mean to write a book here. Hope I’ve answered your questions. Call 765-620-2053 and we can talk more.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 06:53:09 AM by Dave Waters »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2012, 05:14:13 AM »
Also if the rifle is made to be a match rifle I lock the "hook" on patent breeches with a screw. It removes a variable.
...
Dan

Dan, can you elaborate just a bit about this screw? I can guess at how you do this, but nothing better than an explanation straight from the source.
whetrock

I tap the rear of the hook and use a large headed screw to lock it too the tang.
Yes the gun must be disassembled to unlock the barrel from the tang, but there are no screws showing.
Dan
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2012, 06:50:40 AM »
You are welcome Dave, sometimes things just don't get done if you don't go ahead and do it.  I'm am that rule too often.  I'm learning to forge on ahead and learn how to make, fix, and avoid mistakes in REAL time.  I spent way too much time in the classroom in my earlier life.  Real life is an underrated teaching experience.

I've only glanced through it yet, but there are SB collections in The Kentucky Rifle and PAA covers the "toting" of pistols in general in the Pistol chapter of Grenville (the chapter before SB, but i don'ts read in orders all ways. ;D

Peter basically says that pistols were a target and dueling item, but not commonly carried as revolvers came to be...and still are.  ;)

We should get one written into a movie and then business might boom (swivel) boom. 
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Dave Waters

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2012, 07:03:10 AM »
Wade

I'll try to get your book sent out tomorrow. Again, after you get it call me at 765-620-2053 and we can talk more. I've changed phone numbers lately and haven't got it changed every where yet.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 07:04:01 AM by Dave Waters »

Offline oldgunguy

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Re: swivel breech-general info
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 07:22:09 PM »
Hi Wade,

I sell parts to make a swivel breech lock, flint only, I have parts for a beginner and more advanced bulider. You can find me on the web. An old site of mine has some pictures or look me up in Peter Alexander's fine book, he used my lock on the rifle pictured there.  Thanks Bernie,  pioneerarms.com
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 11:39:53 PM by oldgunguy »