Author Topic: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle  (Read 8043 times)

Windriverbob

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Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« on: December 17, 2012, 11:28:15 PM »

Original Leman Trade Rifle Targets 003 Comp. by Windriverbob, on Flickr
This is the first target I shot after acquiring some .465 RB's from a forum member. More of a pattern than a group. This was shot at 50yds. from the bench with a 6:00 hold on the bull. The load was 60 grs. of Swiss 3F, Ballistol/water mix for lube, .020 patch and the .465 cast RB's, RWS cap.


Original Leman Trade Rifle Targets 004 Comp. by Windriverbob, on Flickr

This is the second target shot. I stepped the charge up to 70 grs. with everything else remaining the same. A group is starting to form. At this point I started running out of day light and RB's(should have gotten more than 20).
Before returning to the range I will be making a little windage adjustment. I will be replacing the nipple also. The original nipple has just a straight hole through it that is the same diameter the whole length. I was getting more blow back than what I'm use to with a "regular" nipple and it would have been affecting the pressure and velocity. The rifle responded to to the higher charge so I'm going try 75 grs. the next time and see what happens. With the new nipple and heavier charge I'm hoping the group size will shrink.


Original Leman Trade Rifle Targets 005 Comp. by Windriverbob, on Flickr

This last picture shows the patches I recovered from the 10 shots taken. the .020 patch seemed to be working well with the ,465 RB's. I don't know if I'd gain anything using .470 dia. RB's or not. That would involve another search of the world looking for some of them. I'll wait to see how the 75 gr. load works out and what 80 grs. produces also.

Bob

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2012, 12:25:47 AM »
How about posting some pictures of the Leman rifle so we can see what you are shooting?
Phil Meek

Windriverbob

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2012, 07:38:23 PM »
I can do that!

Original Leman Trade Rifle by Windriverbob, on Flickr
Right side view.

Original Leman Trade Rifle by Windriverbob, on Flickr
Left Side View

Original Leman Muzzle by Windriverbob, on Flickr
The business end

Original Leman Cap box by Windriverbob, on Flickr
Typical Leman patch box and faux stripping on the maple stock.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 07:58:46 PM by Windriverbob »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2012, 08:54:47 PM »
Hi there Win d River. That picture of the muzzle makes me wonder if the bore fouled much when you were shooting. Those narrow and deep looking groves look like they could collect fouling pretty easy.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 02:07:19 AM »
Hi there Win d River. That picture of the muzzle makes me wonder if the bore fouled much when you were shooting. Those narrow and deep looking groves look like they could collect fouling pretty easy.
Yes deep and deeper.  How are your patches holding up?  What lube and patch thickness.?  Are you hammering to start the ball...?  Looks like a well kept ol timer..

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 03:00:41 AM »
Hi there Win d River. That picture of the muzzle makes me wonder if the bore fouled much when you were shooting. Those narrow and deep looking groves look like they could collect fouling pretty easy.

I have a photo of a Connestoga Rifle Works FL with a 1840 dated Leman Flintlock that has identical rifling. These are the narrowest I have seen in American rifles with round bores but its not terribly uncommon it seems.
This 1814 Common rifle is similar but a little wider.


There is a Swivel breech in Cody with similar land grooves ratios to the Lemans.
 
Dan
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Windriverbob

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2012, 03:11:46 AM »
The load information is with the pictures. The ball started very easily with a short starter. Fouling wasn't a problem and the bore cleaned up real quickly. I think using the Swiss powder and the Ballistol/water mix for the patch lube made this possible. The 10 shot loaded as easily as the first one. You can see in the 3rd. picture that I posted the patches seemed to be working just fine.
Bob

Thanks again Roger for the RB's

Offline Steve-In

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 04:51:37 AM »
I wonder with the narrow grooves to bore surface if the rifling is really doing anything.  More like a smoothbore rather than a rifled bore.  I would like to see a ball that was expelled with a Co2 disgharger to see if the rifling is working.
Very nice old rifle.
Steve Neher

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 09:10:49 AM »
While it would not be my choice for a rifle I suspect it works.
Otherwise I would not find 2-3 rifles in the Cody museum with similar land groove ratios.
Inaccurate rifles have never been popular.
Many of the rifle matches of the 18th and 19th c. were rest matches and people were serious about it.
Bets were made, prizes won or lost.
Rifle makers who made inaccurate rifles had just as well take up horse shoeing full time cause they would not sell many rifles.
Most tested the rifle and made a charger for the rifle along with a mould.
Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 06:43:13 PM »
The load information is with the pictures. The ball started very easily with a short starter. Fouling wasn't a problem and the bore cleaned up real quickly. I think using the Swiss powder and the Ballistol/water mix for the patch lube made this possible. The 10 shot loaded as easily as the first one. You can see in the 3rd. picture that I posted the patches seemed to be working just fine.
Bob

Thanks again Roger for the RB's
Suggest kick up the patching thickness to .025 or even .030 (denim?)

Offline Leatherbelly

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 10:24:52 PM »
..or move up to a .470 minimum or a .475 r/b. Patch may need to go thinner,say .018. I shoot 75gr 2f in my fifty with a 66" twist. Most times for me, a ball 5 thou smaller then the bore works real nice for accuracy.18 to 20 thou patch will need to be short started.No biggy. I have to move the ball down the bore in shorter increments due to it being tighter but a sloppy wet patch gets the job done. Even with this tighter combo, you may  have to wipe after half a dozen shots due to your grooves being so deep and narrow...but maybe not.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 01:03:56 AM »
I do not think that the grooves of the Leman rifle are anywhere as deep as they appear.  Yes, they're narrow but the muzzle has likely been filed to exaggerate the grooves, as was done on almost all jaeger rifles from Europe.  I did this on my Virginia rifle just for a hoot, and found it did not in any way take away from the rifles prior accuracy.  If anything, it is improved.  Many Hawken rifles have this treatment too.
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Daryl

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 02:07:43 AM »
My thoughts, too, Taylor. Filed most likely. Since it loads easily with a starter adn the patches aren't cut and using 70gr. 3F Swiss - that all stacks up to a filed (enlarged) muzzle.  If it isn't, I would be quite surprised.

Offline bgf

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 02:14:21 AM »
I don't think the lead has to take the rifling for the rifle to be accurate.  Roundball's experiments with brass balls are pretty convincing, and many report good results with wheel weight cast balls.  Then there are the period accounts of using "scratch" rifling to cheat in smoothbore matches.  Apparently any spin is adequate for a round ball.  With this rifle, I would try a slightly bigger ball and a slightly thinner silk patch based on what I've read from the caplock era.  It doesn't take much to fill the narrow grooves and excessively thick material just gets in the way.  Just an observation.

Also, Taylor is likely correct about the rifling not being as deep as it looks at the muzzle.  It is unlikely one of the biggest makers of rifles in the period produced barrels that weren't any good at all!

Finally, the 75gr. group is starting to show promise.  By eyeball, it appears that it is around 2" if you assume the one at upper right is a flyer.  70-80 gr. 2F has always been a good spot for my .50's.  75gr. 3F should be even "more adequate".  Given that it is an old barrel (though it looks plenty good and sturdy), I'd look for a better patch and ball rather than going much higher in powder charge.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 02:24:51 AM »
I have to agree with Taylor and Daryl re the grooves being filed at the muzzle. If nothing else, it seems that cleaning the grooves would be darn near impossible given the depth that is shown let alone getting a patch to seal the load.
Mark
Mark

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 02:36:15 AM »
I magnified the picture of the patches from 100 to 400, and it appears there is some tearing (perhaps blow by) on some of those patches.  I'm leaning towards the patch as the culprit as someone mentioned before.

Daryl

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2012, 02:41:17 AM »
My .32 has a bore similar to the one Dan posted as to ratio of wide lands and narrow grooves.  My best results so far, are with a .311" ball and a .0215" ticking to a. 023" ticking patch. Both seem to shoot identically and loading is literally the same as well - easy with pure lead balls. I tried the .023" railroad mattress ticking patch with a .320" ball and it-too loaded OK, but a bit stiffer, however the 5/16" rod was never in danger of breaking.

I do think a thicker patch and smaller ball as used, are the way to go for the easiest loading, delivering good accuracy with the least danger of destroying the patch. I'd try more powder until I found the patches becoming damaged, or accuracy diminishes if the patches hold up.

Offline duca

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 05:37:04 AM »
Wow! really Nice Rifle. Good luck with it. I was thinking more about clean up after a shoot. How do you get down into the Rifling? I guess it's not as deep as it appears..... 
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Windriverbob

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 09:05:23 PM »
After reading the discussions about the bore depth, I took a strong light and magnifying glass to the muzzle to get a better look. The actual groove depth looks to be half or a little less than what is portrayed at the muzzle. Each groove had been relieved or deepened at the muzzle. I would hazard a guess that it was done to ease loading. I have seen this on other originals and a number of good modern made replicas as well. When the weather clears some around here, I'll return to the range for further testing. Thanks to all for the comments, I appreciate it.

Bob

jamesthomas

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Re: Shooting Report: Original .48 cal. Leman trade rifle
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 12:54:08 AM »
 Can't wat for the follow myself, thats a reaal purty rifle ya have there!.