First build from a blank and asking for advice. UPDATE

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Gentlemen and ladies.  Here are some pics of my mountain rifle I am building for my brother in law.  It is also my first build from a blank.  A lot more wood needs to be removed but I wanted to go ahead and post some images to get any insight any of you have.  I am having trouble with the transition areas.  Where the comb transitions into the wrist and then the wrist into the lock panel, etc.  Some mountain rifles have a sharp transition, others not as sharp.  Also the trigger guard is not completely inlet, it is just hanging there.  It will sit in a bit more.  








Coryjoe

[James Wilson Everett]

Coryjoe,

Looks good so far.  Something that may help is to drill a small hole from the barrel channel just about at the breech plug face all the way through to where the front trigger guard extension inlet is.  Now you can easily see how much wood is between the ramrod hole and the forestock belly.  You really do not need much thickness here, but the hole allows you to shave the wood down without the awful "oops" of cutting into the ramrod hole.  You may be able to take off quite a lot of wood here and allow a nice looking lock panel/wrist area.  Here is a photo of a lock on a Lancaster style gun, see how little wood is below the lockplate and above the trigger guard.  Sometimes original guns will have the ramrod touching the inner surface of the front trigger guard extension, with only about 1/16 inch of wood between the ramrod hole and the forestock belly.

Jim

[Joe Schell]

Dont know if this will help, but here is a pic of a similar rifle.[img][/img]

[cmac]

I agree with Joe on the forearm wood. Also there appears to be a a bit much above the tail end of the breech plug(above tail of lock). The Lock side panel looks okay but the "side plate" side looks heavy on the top. I would also remove some of the rear part of the cheek piece: it seems to be crowding the butt plate. Other than that its looking good to me. How thin is it along the barrel and ramrod? You don't want much here, the slimmer the better. Keep us posted

[Tom Currie]

I agree this a lot of extra wood under the forestock.  Where is your RR hole in relation to the front lock bolt ? , it should be right on the bottom of it.

Mentioned before but your barrel tang seems to go rather straight back from the barrel and this is causing almost a hump of wood in this area. Look how big the sideplate arealooks because of this.  The end result is a extra tall wrist area. I would think about re-working your barrel tang to taper downward quicker. It will reduce bulk.

Hope this helps.
 

[smylee grouch]

It might be the just the photo angle but the front of the cheek rest looks higher above the plane of the stock or at least as high as the rear of the cheek. Just wondering if this is so and if it would look better if the front were slightly lower than the rear.   

[paa]

Hey FRiend,  First of all, your lock panel, while suitable for a late period percussion Mountain rifle. Second, you have not discovered the use of 3:5 proportional dividers.  You can buy a copy of "Seeing Through the Eyes of Yesteryear" by Pat Hallem - or check out my latest book.  Your dividers, after you have made them, along with Patrick's - or my book, will help you to define your cheek piece - or any other part of your stock.  Regards,   Peter A. Alexandert

[ken]

It looks like you are well on your way to making a nice gun. Try to think of it like a lady, slender with curves. Your pencil will be your best freind. Remember the stock is not the support of the gun, the barrel is. An old friend who was a master told me  if it does not feel like ti belongs there get rid of it -too much wood.(George Deck). Use your hands to feel, convex and concave curves remember the curves. But you are doing a good jod. Keep going It looks like a good beginning     ken

[Dennis Glazener]

Cory Joe,
I think the perch belly on the bottom of the butt stock should go, remove enough wood to bring the toe up even with the toe of the buttplate. Maybe use a a long board with coarse sandpaper glued to it to flatten it out. The same treatment for the forearm in front of the trigger guard extension.
Dennis

[WadePatton]

perch belly!, love it.

and i missed it. term for the day.

[rich pierce]

CoryJoe, I know it's late in the build but it looks like the tang does not bend for the first inch and a half, maybe more.  The wrist will flow better if you start flowing down toward the comb starting right from the breech.   At the same time you want your stock to taper from the tang down to the lock panels more.  It looks like the stock may be flattish on top beside the tang.  This results in big, wide lock panels such as on a TC "Hawken", quite different from rifles of the time and place you're digging into.  Try using the angled flats of the barrel as a guide.

[bgf]

I think I agree with Rich Pierce about problems in the wrist/lock panel areas, but part/source of the problem at least in part is the that the late Ketland is not exactly ideal for this type of rifle, as the plate is too small, esp. vertically, in some cases (e.g. a large breech).  Tilting it may be necessary but doesn't help much in this case and may draw attention to the area.  Just my reaction; take it for the little it is worth.  Even with all that, don't beat yourself up; it isn't uncommon for those rifles to offend the holy in terms of technique and lock panel size/shape.

What type of barrel and how does it measure at the breech?  It looks like a big barrel at the breech?

Dennis is right about the perch belly.  Better to err the other way if you have to.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Hello everyone.  I really appreciate all of your help.  This is hard!!  Trying to get those lines right and keep is lined up with both sides.  Shoooooh.  Anyway, I worked on it some today and it looks alot better and feels a lot better.  I have not had a chance to get pictures of it, but I will.  I teach and right now we are on Christmas break and I hope to get the bulk of the shaping done over that time and then on to patchbox etc.   

Thanks everyone,

Coryjoe

[Acer Saccharum]

Yea,I agree with T Currie.  the tang could really be bent down and that would make a better 'flow' of the stock. Look at the lock and the look at the profile line of the stock. The lock is positioned perfectly to follow the wrist. But the tang is too straight, so it causes the stock to look heavy and awkward above the lock.

If you bend the tang down, and it is too short for its inlet, you can cold forge it out with a hefty hammer. This will give it more length and more width, just in case you need to fill any gaps. (no, no, no, I never did this before, just sayin') 

[Larry Luck]

One thing that helps me is to draw reference lines along the center of the comb to the tang and along the lower buttstock from the toe to the triggerguard and re-draw as I rasp them away.  This allows me to maintain symmetry (or know how I am departing from it).  I don't see any refernce lines on your stock.

Based on the reference lines, you can draw perpendicular lines to know where other details, such as lock and sideplate panels are located and make other measurements as you shape.  Don't know if it is necessary, but it really helps me.

This is based on all of two completed rifles and one that is fully shaped but not finished.

Good luck.

Larry Luck

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Ok everyone here is an update on the build.  I have removed a lot more material.  The rifle feels very good right now.  Not great, but very good.  More needs to come off of the forestock, which I will get to later.  I like to leave a little meat on there while I am working on stuff.  I exposed the bottom buttplate screw, it now sticks out there at the bottom.  I think I will fix that.  Anyway, here it is, thanks for your help and I look forward to any suggestions. 

Also, I did not bend the tang down more as was suggested by a couple of you.  I do not want you to think I am disregarding your advice.  I chose not to do it because it would open up other cans of worms with my inletting.  I am willing to chalk it up to experience at this point. 







Coryjoe

[rich pierce]

CJ, for some nice lock panel shaping on a rifle with somewhat similar architecture look here in our Originals section:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22665.0

or here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8921.0

[Dennis Glazener]

Cory,
The belly of the butt looks much better but I think you still can go down a fair amount. If necessary the toe end of the buttplate can be filed/cut off. As far as the buttplate screw, just cut the threads off or use a shorter screw. The toe plate will cover the hole where it currently comes through.

If it were mine I would thin the forward end of the buttplate comb. Note how the buttplate extension tapers toward the front but the comb doesn't carry out that theme.

Also I like to take a pencil and draw in where the lock panels should start to break, once i get them drawn in like I want, I use my rasp to work the "corner" off down to the trigger plate, keeping the mid-section of the underside (trigger plate area) flat. I also start at the edges of the tang and taper the wood down to the lock panel lines, this keeps you from having an abrupt "birm" around the lock panels. Hope this makes sense. Rich's links show some good lock panels to get an idea of how they should look.

Dennis

[Tom Currie]

I once inletted a Bucks County entry pipe tang and was really proud of myself until the advice I received was " too much wood there" and I rasped it all off and then re-inlet the whole thing.

I would encourage you to not settle on that barrel tang. I know you did a lot of work to inlet that thing.

 The overhead view shows me that your comb almost gets wider, as does the cheekpiece it gets near the nose of the comb. I would suggest you taper the comb down some and also the cheekpiece so that it thinner near the front than it is at the rear.

On your side plate panel, I would lower the horizontal top until it is just above the top lock bolt. That would allow for a steeper angle down from the barrel tang , more closely aligned with the oblique flat of the barrel.

If you can take some wood off the lower fore stock all the way through the trigger assembly. You'll have to rei-inlet the front of the trigger guard and trigger plate but it will look better, bringing the trigger closer to the lock. I have done this before also.

I know that's a lot.

[WadePatton]

CoryJoe you are rockin' it.  I gotta get the woodpile built back up then i'm going to try to play catch up.

And don't forget that everybody over-builds everything now compared to the old standards-especially MTN standards.  but that's just a fitment concept, shape is another thing.  Rasp on bro!

[TMerkley]

Another option for the tang "issue" is to use a file and bevel the edges of the tang to be even with the wood or even level the top of the tang with the file if you wish.  Or, you can remove metal from the bottom side and it will look as a perfect fit when done.  Metal is easier to put back than wood. (sometimes). 

Tom

[smart dog]

Hi Cory,
Are you working from a plan or drawing?  It really seems like you are shaping the stock ad hoc without a good guide.  There is enough wood left to get it right but you need a well thought out plan or drawing.

dave

[greybeard]

Hello Corey;  I would be the first to say how cool these deep cresent buts look so I hope that it is a small bore rifle gun as with so much negative pitch it is going to hurt if it is much bigger than .36 cal.
    My opinion only. Those old Tennesee guns are really cool though. Keep up the good work.
    Building from a blank  is an ambitious challenge and you are doing just fine  and most of the issues have been addressed by the learned members on this forum. Good luck and Happy New Year.    Bob

[Cory Joe Stewart]

The lock is canted too much.  I was trying to line it up and give room for the front lock bolt to avoid the ramrod hole.  That was the big mistake on my first rifle.  As you said, not a lot I can do now.

Thanks for the image.

Coryjoe

I'm far from an expert but my unedgumacated eye sees too much wood on the under side from entry pipe area to the rear trigger guard tang. Compare these 2 pictures:



I think the transition from the trigger area to the toe line starts too far forward. That bottom edge of the lock plate shouldn't have so much wood showing under it. You will have a slimmer wrist and less fish belly if you remove wood from the lower edge too, which will help the looks, IMHO.
The lock may be canted too much to the rear too but that can't be changed now.

T

[Cory Joe Stewart]

It is a .45 which is what my brother in law wanted.  He is a stout fellow.  Better him than me shooting it. 

Thanks

Coryjoe

Hello Corey;  I would be the first to say how cool these deep cresent buts look so I hope that it is a small bore rifle gun as with so much negative pitch it is going to hurt if it is much bigger than .36 cal.
    My opinion only. Those old Tennesee guns are really cool though. Keep up the good work.
    Building from a blank  is an ambitious challenge and you are doing just fine  and most of the issues have been addressed by the learned members on this forum. Good luck and Happy New Year.    Bob