If a production reproduction

[WadePatton]

Sort of fell into your hands, what would you do with it?  

Aside from smoothing over the rough edges of production products, options i envision:

just work up a load and use it.

or work it over-maybe with some reshaping, faux stripes/aging, colors, brass tacks, etc. like a trade gun.  trade it.  I realize this will kill it for "dealers" but might catch a shooter's eye.

and or also donate it to the next young person who expresses an interest in rock crushers over two-oh-niners.



it's a T/C half-stock flinter in 54.  drive it into the ground and tether the old mule to it?



that peanut butter wood is killin' me.    

note, i'll just shoot it whilst i complete my other one, work will be for in-between times.  except that the rear sight has to GO pronto.  [/ramble]

[Don Stith]

The T/C is not a reproduction of anything. Unless you count the first one produced as an original and all subsequent productions  are a reproduction

[PPatch]

Yeah, shoot it. Then trade it or give it to a youngster after you get your build finished.

dave

[WadePatton]

The T/C is not a reproduction of anything. Unless you count the first one produced as an original and all subsequent productions  are a reproduction

they have some "styling cues".  i get there's not PC-ness, but i just think everything looks better more older...that's why i'm aging me. 

[KLMoors]

The T/C is not a reproduction of anything. Unless you count the first one produced as an original and all subsequent productions  are a reproduction

I laughed out loud at that one.

[Bob Roller]

Is that like a Spanish copy of a Belgian reproduction???

Bob Roller

[whetrock]

I think giving it to a kid and teaching him how to shoot it is a great idea.

When I was 18 or so, I had a CVA "kentucky" kit gun, and my buddy had a T/C like you've got there, WP. We were just starting in this game and didn't know any better. We made up a bunch of "buckskinner" clothing for ourselves out of junk we dug out of our parent's attics. I had an old floppy black hat that had once been a tricorner from the CWF giftshop. And he had a hat made out of a skunk we had caught in a trap (still smelled a little off center, but that was okay). Walked down the middle of the street in our fancy getup in the 4th of July parade of our little 2 traffic-light town. We had an absolute ball.  His dad still has that old rifle hanging on his wall.  May not be a museum piece, but the old T/Cs have surely helped make a lot of fond memories.

[doulos]

Yeah, shoot it. Then trade it or give it to a youngster after you get your build finished.

dave

thats the best idea--- TC Hawkens, Lyman GPR and assorted CVAs and Pedersolis and such got more people interested in traditional style muzzleloaders than you can shake a stick at.

[WadePatton]

Whet, we's big time, got 4 lights and even a few miles of divided highway-which all the locals call "the 4-lane".  I imported myself from the "big" town down the road.

This is the plainer version they sell, so i's have to put a plate and box on it, and shuck that rear sight if it lives here long.  Not like i can de-value it. 

arright 'nuff wasted space on that.

[Dphariss]

Sort of fell into your hands, what would you do with it?  

Aside from smoothing over the rough edges of production products, options i envision:

just work up a load and use it.

or work it over-maybe with some reshaping, faux stripes/aging, colors, brass tacks, etc. like a trade gun.  trade it.  I realize this will kill it for "dealers" but might catch a shooter's eye.

and or also donate it to the next young person who expresses an interest in rock crushers over two-oh-niners.



it's a T/C half-stock flinter in 54.  drive it into the ground and tether the old mule to it?



that peanut butter wood is killin' me.    

note, i'll just shoot it whilst i complete my other one, work will be for in-between times.  except that the rear sight has to GO pronto.  [/ramble]

Given events of the past I would not let anyone GIVE me one. Once  had it I would have the sell it for scrap anyway. I could not in good conscience give to sell it to anyone else.

Dan

[halfstock]

Gentlemen this post has allmost turned into an elitest type of conversation.

[Dan'l 1946]

Gentlemen this post has allmost turned into an elitest type of conversation.

   Most of us here are strong-minded traditionalists, rather than elitists. But even elitists are often right....

[JoeG]

I have seen a complete set of more traditional looking iron castings for a TC
butt plate, trigger guard, and nose cap for sale
 
I would install those,change the sights and reshape the stock
that along with brass tacks and rawhide would go a long way to making it look more traditional

using the TC as a loaner or a gift to a new shooter is a good way to expose more people to traditional  muzzle loading and away from those black plastic stocked inlines , which is all a new shooter sees anymore.

[docone]

I used those castings on a Cabelas Hawken. Made a significant difference to the good.
The Hawken Shop has them.
By the piece or by the set.

[rich pierce]

Gentlemen this post has allmost turned into an elitest type of conversation.

There's no need for rudeness even if opinions are strongly held.  But folks, it's a forum dedicated to the traditional LONGRIFLE.  It's not generally about black powder guns and shooting, but how those things fit with the longrifle.  It's more of a crafts-type forum, and mass-produced factory guns are not a primary interest of most of the members.  If that approach makes this forum "elitist" in some views, that's OK as long as we're civil to one another.  We can be focused and interested in craftsmanship without having an elitist attitude. 

There are other forums where TC rifles and other mass-produced black powder guns are mainstream.

[Dphariss]

Gentlemen this post has allmost turned into an elitest type of conversation.

There is history behind my post.
Documented history. Its not some opinion I just woke up with one morning.
But people prefer to ignore it or are too new to the sport to have any knowledge of it.

Were I to give someone something of this sort and they should be injured if it malfunctions in any way I could then enter the "liability chain". This equals lawyer fees. The same is true if I repair it or tell someone its safe to shoot, give them loading instructions etc etc etc. Since at one time there was a string of name brand "accidents" and I have no idea the production date or what abuse it may have sustained by some previous owner, I prefer not to be involved.
Others are free to let their conscience be their guide.
Dan

[WadePatton]

I'm not getting that gun.  Couldn't get a reasonable price.  putting that money into a bbl.

Although I did own a perfectly serviceable percussion version not long ago.  

They do use a name from the past to sell those guns, I just haven't studied that (the proper) style enough to know the big diff.  IOW could not a man restock the cheap imported bbl/coilyspring lock into a better shaped piece of wood and appeal to the TWEENERS?  

TWEENER:  someone who has learned a little about the study and execution of longrifles but doesn't have a PhD yet.  It's not a light-switch, it's a curve and some ramp up faster than others.

So toward that end, the education of the Tweeners and not a fussy fit twixt the enlightened and the mud, where did they go horribly wrong in that, what is referred to as, "traditional" type gun?  $#*! i'll go first:  The lock, octagonal bbl, and half-stock all appear(externally) roughly similar to what i see posted at TOW as a "Hawken" rifle. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/492/1/AAL-715

That only leaves furniture details and stock architecture right?  We, the tweeners have to learn somewhere.  If Samuel and Jacob Hawken's "Rocky Mountain Rifle" production is beyond the scope of this forum then i apologize and will study on that later, consider the whole thread delete-able.  
mods-cut this up any way you choose

I just double-checked and found in part: would have been made or used in North America between 1607 and 1898.

AS to the Hawken parts on classifieds, yes I made contact and they are sold pending.

I'm going to see if Tippy is home today, might get me some bbls and locks and sech...

Dan I've no idea about  your personal notions of liability, but am quite familiar with those in my state and most others.  There's never a limit to who can be sued over what.  The limit is applied by the court.  I am familiar with that system.  And i don't mean to diminish your comments except to the effect that they mean little without context.  If there is an unusual mechanical safety aspect that others should be made aware of, let's have it.  It might _avoid_ an injury.  Uninjured Campers make for the happiest ones, regardless of the source of their info.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Wade, the truth, as I see it, is that a T/C "Hawken" no more resembles a Hawken rifle than a Lada resembles a Lincoln.  And that's ok, but it must be said.  I started out my muzzle loading life with a flint T/C "Hawken" and enjoyed it to excess.  What it did for me was to inspire me to learn more - to study and build something better.  The turn around time for that was only a couple of years, and naturally, I've never looked back except when a thread like this makes me do so, and smile.  I have a 8 x 10 glossy on my wall of me shooting that first rifle, so obviously, I have not garbage'd all those memories.  I might post it sometime for a hoot.

[WadePatton]

This is what i'm _now_ asking of the PhD's.

Everyone says "it don't look like", but no specifics, please point our little heads (mine's kinda pointy too) to the particular features offensive.  So that we my learn.  Just get us started.  (Don't know anything about a "Lada", but i have seen a Lincoln in most variants. and along those lines, I can give you numerous specific differences between a 24-valve and 12-valve B-series 5.9 Cummins engine, that 98% of their owners (in pickup truck app) are not familiar with-nor do they care.)

We are here because we care.

Is that too much to ask?  

[JTR]

And 98% don't care about the differences between a TC and an original Hawken. Those 2% that do care study the differences and make themselves familiar with what it takes to be called a Hawken rifle, beyond just the name.
A good start would be Google or some other internet search engine, then any of the several books that deal with original rifles.

Just a few substantial difference between the two are brass furniture vs steel, the shape of the furniture, the triggers, the sights, the shape of the stock, the lock, the muzzle cap and the keys that hold the barrel. A few others come to mind, but that's enough for now.

Search out, look, compare and learn, just like the majority of interested guys here do. Longrifles or Hawkens are an interesting journey if you care to take it.
John

I should add that I had a TC Hawken long ago, shot the heck out of it and found it very accurate. But then I got a bit more serious about longrifles and traded it off for a E. Tenn rifle with a toilet seat patchbox, no lock, but a nice hand made barrel!

Happy New Year!

[rich pierce]

Anyone could just google J&S Hawken rifle and TC Hawken rifle and see, but I'll summarize.  A J&S or Sam Hawken rifle was normally a 9-11 pound rifle, with (on average) a 34" barrel, steel mounts of distinctive styling including a scroll guard and a deep crescent buttplate.  There was no excess wood anywhere, and the rifles were finely crafted, one at a time.  Designed for strength with a long tang bolted through to the long trigger bar, they were made for accurate round ball shooting at distance with rifling was normally deep.

A TC "Hawken" rifle is a lightweight short barreled rifle with modern, often round-ended (for machine inletting) brass furniture that has no resemblance to original Hawken rifles.  The stocks closely resemble post-WWII cheap .22 rifles or centerfire sporters.  That is because they were designed to market to "second season" deer hunters who were used to modern guns.

Resemblance of TC Hawkens to original Hawken plains or mountain rifles:
Barrel: unrecognizable as a Hawken barrel, too short and lightweight with shallow rifling
Lock:  unrecognizable as Hawken with cast-in engraving and hammer
Tang/breech: unrecognizable as a Hawken breech/tang
Triggers:  unrecognizable design
Guard:  unrecognizable in design and material
Buttplate: unrecognizable in design and material
Thimbles: unrecognizable in design, material and fastening
Nosecap:  unrecognizable in shape and material
Sights: unrecognizable, modern styling
Rifling: unrecognizable, out of place depth and twist
Stock styling: unrecognizable as a Hawken, out of place clubbiness

In short, there is no single part in a TC Hawken, that a person knowledgable in J&S or Sam Hawken rifles would recognize as belonging on a Hawken rifle.

A contemporary Hawken rifle:
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/02/louie-parker-s-hawken.html

(added)  I don't hate TC Hawkens, I think it is misleading that they were marketed as Hawken rifles.  because they are only vaguely historically inspired, they do not interest me other than as a tool I could use for a purpose if I didn't have another.

[Dphariss]

This is what i'm _now_ asking of the PhD's.

Everyone says "it don't look like", but no specifics, please point our little heads (mine's kinda pointy too) to the particular features offensive.  So that we my learn.  Just get us started.  (Don't know anything about a "Lada", but i have seen a Lincoln in most variants. and along those lines, I can give you numerous specific differences between a 24-valve and 12-valve B-series 5.9 Cummins engine, that 98% of their owners (in pickup truck app) are not familiar with-nor do they care.)

We are here because we care.

Is that too much to ask?  

As a friend of mine is prone to say. "If I have to explain it they ain't gonna get it".
To appreciate a Hawken or a John Armstrong or a Vincent takes some study to train one's eye to KNOW what a Vincent is. Otherwise people can and do, mistake a 1/2 stock percussion Kentucky rifle for a musket. Its the DETAILS .
It's the DETAILS, sometimes very subtle ones that make or break things things of this sort.  The TC Hawken and its imported clones, introduced a lot of people to MLing. It also got TC sued a few times till they found out that it WAS possible to blow up a ML with BP and presumably changed barrel steels. As a result when people talk about collecting early TCs I cringe.
The moderistic design, poor (modern design) locks, breech plugs grossly overtightened, etc etc etc were just icing on the cake. But it is not talked about since it is considered passe today and its certainly not popular with magazine editors to risk aggravating advertisers. Thus its rare in the extreme to see ANYTHING that states the truth about a crappy firearm or accessory in a gun magazine. If its REALLY bad they may not publish anything.  But if the maker buys enough advertising it will get at least neutral press and perhaps a glowing endorsement.
This is why there are inlines in the NMLRA and why animals shot with them are allowed in the records for ML game. Its a money thing....

All these, except maybe one, are Hawken rifles. Every one is different.


However, people who KNOW a Hawken can tell thats what they are because of details. Some Hawken "Mountain Rifles" have single triggers for example. Some have pistol grip stocks and Schuetzen tang sights.
This one is a variant in that its SILVER mounted.

 But the basic rifle is still a J&S Hawken. If the person knows what he is looking at.
Expecting someone to explain why this is the case in a post on a website is unrealistic.
You gotta pay your dues.
Buy the books, look at rifles, talk to people who have expertise. Learn to tell a Hawken from another St. Louis rifle. A Hawken "Squirrel Rifle" from an Ohio Rifle of the same period. It takes interest, a real desire to learn, time and effort on the part of the viewer to develop the necessary "eye".

Dan

[WadePatton]

Thanks for some meaningful replies fellas.  That might help more new folks get a bit of a grip on how fine the snuff can be ground.  And also what the scoffing and spitting is actually all about.

I am aware of how to use the internet. That is how i found ALR. I am compiling a book collection (The Kentucky Rifle is a latest), and I am reading what i find.

BUT at this particular point in time, I am focused more on TN than Plains/RockyMtn guns.  Hence me not being already fully familiar with every nuance of the proper Hawken.

I ask questions HERE because the internet led me here to where many great minds have studied and learned and a few of them don't mind sharing some "cliffs notes" versions with us, the unwashed. 

And so long as us, the unwashed, don't think that because the great learned men of ALR shared some information and insight with us, that NOW we are heretofore because of such information sharing are suddenly without dampness behind the ears and take to fancy ourselves as experts of any sort, THEN it's O-KAY. 

Not all will share, not all will listen.  This cannot be changed, but those who care, share.

Thanks again. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Wade, one could write a book or at least a thesis on what makes a Hawken rifle what it is, and different from even its close contemporaries of St. Louis.  To ask for it here, beyond what has already been generously given, is a big deal.  Discussing those fine points one or even two at a time is one thing, and lots of us would be willing to get into that, but your request is far too broad.  I'm 64 yrs. old and have been studying Hawken rifles for about 45 of those.  Asking me to regurgitate all of that knowledge here and now is unrealistic.  Perhaps others have more patience and benevolence.  But don't be angry if you find you have to do your OWN homework.  I started with Baird's two books, then Hanson's, various printed articles in periodicals, etc, and most recently Jim Gordon's three book set, the last of which features perhaps the most comprehensive collection of detailed photos of Hawken rifles assembled to date.  When I see a contemporary Hawken build by someone like Louis Parker, I download everything into my files, and pour over the images for hours, digesting every nuance.
You must do the same.  Talking about these idiosyncrasies, as interesting as they may be, will not get it done.  "A picture tells a thousand words."

[JTR]

Wade, I don't count myself as any sort of expert. I've just studied longrifles over a period of many years, and along with rifles have bought many books to go along with my collection.
I'm sorry if I irritated you by not answering with a five or ten thousand word essay on what makes a Hawken rifle. Everything I could say is readily available already, but you need to be willing to look as well.
If you or anyone else has a specific question that I can help with, I'm more than willing to search through my library or guns to help answer, but you need to help yourself first as well. There's a lot of guys here with a lot of knowledge, and are eager to share, but try not to ask someone to write a book for you, that's already been written.

John

PS, If you type in Hawken on the Search function here, you'll find 35 Pages of Hawken related info.