If a production reproduction

[Roger Fisher]

Wade, the truth, as I see it, is that a T/C "Hawken" no more resembles a Hawken rifle than a Lada resembles a Lincoln.  And that's ok, but it must be said.  I started out my muzzle loading life with a flint T/C "Hawken" and enjoyed it to excess.  What it did for me was to inspire me to learn more - to study and build something better.  The turn around time for that was only a couple of years, and naturally, I've never looked back except when a thread like this makes me do so, and smile.  I have a 8 x 10 glossy on my wall of me shooting that first rifle, so obviously, I have not garbage'd all those memories.  I might post it sometime for a hoot.

$#*! please do!

[George Sutton]

Thompson Center made a huge contribution to the sport of muzzle loading. For years they were the only game in town. They made a good product and my guess would be that many of the shooters in this sport today, started with TC Hawkens. Not everyone could afford a custom rifle. Let's not forget where we came from boys.

Centershot

[Dan'l 1946]

Thompson Center made a huge contribution to the sport of muzzle loading. For years they were the only game in town. They made a good product and my guess would be that many of the shooters in this sport today, started with TC Hawkens. Not everyone could afford a custom rifle. Let's not forget where we came from boys.

Centershot

   Well put. My problem with T/C has always been that they named their rifle after the Hawken. The basic quality of their gun has never been an issue for me. Personally, I think that they did a better job with the Seneca--both in design and in choosing the name.
   If they had called their first rifle the Plains Rifle and left that goofy "engraving" off of the lock they would have made a lot of us happier. And probably would have sold just as many.
                                             Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In the face of overwhelming requests (1) I post this picture of an early original T/C Hawken rifle and it's proud, happy and young owner.



Anyone interested in seeing another that could have been an ad for T/C if the connections had been there?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Look I can't wait for ever for requests for this sort of service...here's a picture of the "Three Mustgettheirs", all hunting black bear in Northern BC in the early 70's with T/C rifles.

[Bob Roller]

Go back to 1933 when a small group of men got together and put in 50
cents each and thus was born the NMLRA.The mass produced muzzle loader was still
about 40 years into the future.For a long time it was headquartered in Portsmouth,Ohio
and ramrodded by E.M.Farris,C.R.Ramsey and others.The magazine,such as it was in
that time was published by LeRoy Compton also in Portsmouth.All the shooting then
was done with old,refurbished rifles and it wasn't until later that new ones were made
and they were frequently built from old never used locks and rerifled barrels.
Rerifling or recutting as it was then called was the only way available to get one of
these oldies on the line.Bill Large started buying rifled blanks from John Buehmiller
and planing them octagon and was still doing that and recutting old ones in 1953
when I met him.During the day,he taught "Industrial Arts"at a local school and the
barrels were a side line until 1958 when he built the shop he used until he died in
1985.I also knew the others I mentioned and there were still yet others that I haven't
mentioned like Wynn Woods,Charlie Ruark,Claude Turner and last but not least
Walter Cline of Tn.who wrote the "Muzzle Loading Rifle,then annd Now" and he was
active at this in the 1920's and '30's. I knew all of these except Mr.Cline who died in 1940.
The post 19th century muzzle loading movement did NOT begin with TC and if there
is any credit due for this,it should go to Turner Kirkland,Dixie Gun Works in Union City
Tn. who had a 40 caliber fullstock percussion rifle made in Belgium along about 1954.
The MUCH later TC guns of the early 1970's had problems due to lack of knowledge on the part of the makers
who because of that lack,put out some dangerous guns with breech plugs that were over
torqued and that created a built in fracture line in the las thread.Some also had threads too
short and that created a gap between the plug and the barrel and corrosion soon set in.
Another thing was some 45 caliber guns had a breech plug for a 50 caliber which made it
next to impossible to get the rod and patch out of the barrel.
I got my first muzzle loader in 1951 and have watched this sport/hobby activity grow,recede
and start growing again.Where it will go in the future,I don't know but IMHO,if we keep it as
traditional as possible,it will probably be here for a long time.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

Thompson Center made a huge contribution to the sport of muzzle loading. For years they were the only game in town. They made a good product and my guess would be that many of the shooters in this sport today, started with TC Hawkens. Not everyone could afford a custom rifle. Let's not forget where we came from boys.

Centershot

They were never the only game in town. They were perhaps the only one at Wal Mart for a time.
As Bob Roller stated Dixie  GW was furnishing MLs long before TC came on the scene and they were not customs or especially high priced guns either.  If you want to talk about where we came from read Bob's post again.  TC just jumped on the band wagon when it looked profitable.
I know very well that lots of people shot TCs and liked them. Still do. I know Daryl, Taylor had good luck with them.

But its not where I came from. My only factory made was a DGW Belgian made "Squirrel Rifle". The TC  was not considered traditional when it came out and is not traditional today. But with the advent of all the inlines and a plastic stocked sidelock guns NOW people consider it traditional since the stock is wood.
But they are not and I see no reason to discuss them here.
Nor were the early ones a particularly "good product" or there would have been no lawsuits.

Dan

[WadePatton]

Hey yall, one last thingy, I've never asked for a dissertation nor thesis nor other ridiculous amount of work to answer any "wide open" question I have asked here.

There is a place between "get lost kid" and a scholarly composition or even a long essay.  There are ways to generalize for the less learned without completely dumbing down the response.  For those who understand and attempt that - much applause.  

I'm grateful for whichever responses given that help others learn at whatever level the learnees happen to be.  Remember it's not just me and you-there are always a dozen lurking who might like to begin to understand the depths of their ignorance as they begin the journey to peel back those layers.

I do appreciate the ALR braintrust here, that's why I make inquiries here.  If i didn't value the opinions and mentorship of those here, I'd ask somewhere else.

Thanks for playing.

[heinz]

Bob Roller gave such a great history I thought I would add a line or two to fill it out a bit more.  I got started in 1965 with muzzle loader and Bob is a little older than me (I do not get to say that about many folks)   
Dixie Gun Works was an established force by then.  But there were also a few others.  Numrich Arms made their under hammer buggy rifle, my first muzzle loading long arm, and also a full stock flinter with a great barrel and an awful lock.  Bob Tingle made a half stock percussion rifle for target shooter. Very reasonable and very accurate with a coil spring lock.  It looked suspiciously like the later TC Hawken rifles.
Some of the old shooters did cannibalize a lot of rifles and shotguns we would have preserved today.  But eventually the repro market was well established.  In addition to Bill Large, Bill Weichold in Cincinnati made barrels as well as any today I believe.  Homer Dangler, Art Holly, R Southgate and others would build you a rifle that would not break your bank.  And of course, Roller locks were the gold standard and Bud Siler's were next in line.
Log Cabin in Lodi had everything you needed and would hold your hand until you got it together.
An odd thing is there seemed to be a number of makers of fairly high quality percussion revolvers.  Maybe they were just laying off the originals?

[Dphariss]

Hey yall, one last thingy, I've never asked for a dissertation nor thesis nor other ridiculous amount of work to answer any "wide open" question I have asked here.

There is a place between "get lost kid" and a scholarly composition or even a long essay.  There are ways to generalize for the less learned without completely dumbing down the response.  For those who understand and attempt that - much applause.  

I'm grateful for whichever responses given that help others learn at whatever level the learnees happen to be.  Remember it's not just me and you-there are always a dozen lurking who might like to begin to understand the depths of their ignorance as they begin the journey to peel back those layers.

I do appreciate the ALR braintrust here, that's why I make inquiries here.  If i didn't value the opinions and mentorship of those here, I'd ask somewhere else.

Thanks for playing.

It impossible to answer a question like "what makes a Hawken a Hawken"  in a paragraph. People have written BOOKS about it.
Someone who comes here with a question on something simple like some gunsmithing problem will get valid answers of how to address it. Often several good approaches that all work.
Asking someone to tell them what makes a Hawken a Hawken is FAR more complex. To do this a person would need a Hawken rifle or 10 and some others to compare it too then set down with the person and point out the subtleties.
Its not possible to do here. You need to buy some books and LOOK at the photos, go some place and LOOK at the guns. But FIRST you need to understand what you are looking at. Some  people cannot see things when pointed out to them. This is why the Gunstockers guild in Germany only accepted certain people for apprentices and these had a probation period to see if they had the ability to see lines  and curves and contours. If they had no artistic ability they were rejected.
This inability to see lines and contours or rather to be able to tell clunky from graceful is the difference between a good Kentucky and a bad one. There were bad ones made in all eras and regions. We had no guild system and anyone could be a gunsmith. I see Hawken rifles that I am sure neither Jake or Sam stocked or made some of the hardware for. But they surely had apprentices and employees. At least that is what we read. Then we have the restock possibility...
So like I indicated before YOU have to do SOME work on your OWN and not expect people to educate you here for free. While info is gladly exchanged here its not morally correct to expect to learn EVERYTHING by having someone type it into a test box on a web site. As with any education there is homework and research to be done by the student as well.
It is simply impossible to explain the contours of a stock in print and how they differ slightly from a contour on another rifle. It has to be seen...
Dan

[jamesthomas]

 If someone wanted to give me a left-handed flint .50 renagade I would'nt turn it down. I might not shoot it much but I would'nt talk bad about it.

[WadePatton]

Dan I'm trying to agree with folks.  I quite understand the difference in a graduate degree and an online associates.  That is what i mean in that post you quote about sharing and learning and NOT thinking for one minute that EVERYTHING can be learned via forum.  Apparently the meaning was lost in my wordy way of putting it, so i only respond here to that aspect.

Let me re-word sorta, plus pare the edited copy:

It is error to think that a few weeks or years of reading and discussing and looking at photographs on the internet that one COULD learn all he could learn by reading books and and discussing with others in person and looking at guns behind glass and handling guns.  I never thought those were the same thing. And I'm not, no one is trying to "steal" away the understand and learning that comes from years of doing.  NOR am i trying to cut Authors out of getting paid for the work they've done and continue to do.

I ask for learned opinions which are yours, not the regurgitation of someone else's work.  If you don't care to share or can't find the words to give "introductory" help to the questions of the noobs, that's fine.  Someone will.

We just is learning as learners are wont to do with the tools of today. Nothing more. 

let's leave the horse be for a while. thanks really.

(and maybe i'm more "in tune" with learning from books and discussion and lecture as i spend a formidable amount of time of my younger life in college and graduate school.) 

 ...There are ways to generalize for the less learned without completely dumbing down the response.  For those who ...attempt that - much applause.  

I'm grateful for ... responses given that help others learn at whatever level...there are always a dozen lurking who might like to begin to understand ... begin the journey...

I do appreciate the ALR braintrust ...

Thanks for playing.

It impossible to answer a question ...
It is simply impossible to explain the contours of a stock in print and how they differ slightly from a contour on another rifle. It has to be seen...
Dan

[JTR]

Dude, give it a rest. No need to toss buzz words like “stealing” and “don’t care to share”.
Three people answered your question as to why a TC doesn't look like an actual Hawken. That you don't care to accept those answers as adequate seems to be a personal issue.
Sadly, at this point I think you're just choosing to try to be irritating.

John

[Fred]

I don't believe I have ever seen a deer refuse  to die because it was shot through the rib cage with a TC Hawken. You probably won't find a safer muzzle loader or an easier to maintain rifle, nothing fancy, and not period correct,but serviceable and if something does happen to break you get the part for free and you can fix it yourself.

[Dan'l 1946]

  Fred, you are absolutely right. However, a recent poll of deer has shown that 99 out of every 100  deer would PREFER to be shot through the rib cage by a carefully crafted and historically correct muzzleloading rifle--preferably a flintlock. Thus proving that deer not only taste good, but that they have good taste!

[Fred]

I believe your poll was on the money the deer in my swamp seem to have really good taste they won't hold still and give me a shot. Got a fancy flinter and it's still a virgin not even a groundhog yet. Oh well

[smallpatch]

OK, quick change of direction.....  @!*% Taylor, don't you still have that same hat???

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, it is Dane.  It never occurred to me to count the years.  Cripe...41 years!  To quote or at least paraphrase Agustus MacCrea, "no need to quit on a garment 'cause it's got some miles on it."  The beaded band was replaced in about '83.

[Randall Steffy]

Taylor, your pictures (3) in this thread could certainly be called "value added." Very nice indeed!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Randall.

Getting back to the rifle, after proving it to make sure it'll not kill ya, there's a lot you can do to make the T/C Hawken a more traditional looking rifle.  But you'll sink more money into it for new furniture (trigger guard, butt plate, nose piece, and sights.  You may also want to replace the barrel to give a barrel that is known to to safe, and more traditional.

The stock is too high in the comb, and the wrist is too high where it joins the comb.  So by cutting from 3/8" - 1/2" off the top of the wrist, and then the comb, continuing the comb line straight back to the butt plate, you'll greatly improve the shootability of the rifle, with more traditional sights.  The brass butt plate is solid in its return, so you can shape it down with the comb when you do that work.

Reduce the wood along the barrel, exposing more steel.  You can drop it well below half way.  The forearm of the rifle is slab-sided. Once you have reshaped the lock panels you can round up the forearm.

I could go on...but I hope you get the idea.  This might sound like simplification, but you have to have an idea of what you want to achieve before you start cutting.  This is not something you're born with, but something that you learn by study, and by making chips fly.

Enjoy the ride!

[Roger B]

I would buy the TC/Hawken parts from The Hawken Shop, reshape and refinish it, and sell it or give it away.  You could also use it as a "demonstrator" or a blanket prize.  Shoot, you could even raffle it for a good cause.  My dad and I revamped an Italian halfstock back in the 80s and gave it to a kid who was dying of cancer.  I still have the picture of Danny with only one leg and hip climbing a mountain in Colorado (in snow) on crutches with that rifle slung to his back.  It was his most prized posession until his death, and probably still hangs in his family's home.  The gun had been pilfered whle on display at an Aurora, CO gunshop and I got it at a significant discount.  What I'm getting at is that unauthentic "junk" can have real meaning if you use it right.
Roger B.

[Pete G.]

I would keep the brass hardware, but replace all those brass screws. Then use it to practice some antiquing techniques.

Save it as a loaner to get newbies hooked.

[Majorjoel]

I would just take a TC Hawken over to Dave2C's and let him play with it for a few months! I wouldn't even charge him anything.

[Shootrj2003]

At the risk of being castigated and perhaps losing some respect which I have not yet earned here,I will have to say that aT/C Hawken is much closer to a JS Hawken than my T/C Renegade .54which for over30 years has been my go to BP arm ,for fun for hunting,These rifles have opened the doors and eyes of countless s shooters and have earned the title of hunting rifle.while opening the eyes of many to the BP world they have also started many down the trail to true reproductions of the beautiful rifles of the past masters ,I'm sure that many here have had one or something similar at one time,I always knew they were not as beautiful as a custom,and alway's suspected they did not hold as tight a group but I still bagged many a deer with it and they're safety,reliability and ruggedness has never ,ever been questionable,I have followed mine down the path to this site,I now have a Lyman GPR and my squirrel rifle ,a Blue Ridge rifle in .36 .I will own these to the day I die and shoot many balls from them,I also hope to build one as beautiful as some I've seen here,, Think this one day HOPEFULLY 200 years from now they too will or may be an antique. Example of a common working mans BP rifle of the 20th century,not the best or finest but a good working rifle.a lot of us drove Chevvies also. No insult intended to the fine works seen here.Shootr