Author Topic: Lock lubrication (Read 33750 times)

WadePatton · « **Reply #50 on:** January 12, 2013, 08:16:35 PM »

Yes, aerosol brake cleaner leaves residue. Carb cleaner (remember those) doesn't leave as much. These are observations from the auto technicians, not white-coats, but I'd try them (carb probably) as a pre-cleaner for sure-but with ventilation.

If an aerosol cleaner returns you to a "zero" point, then all is well anyway? more snapping-less scrubbing.

A pal has an ultrasonic, claims it's the shizzle (but i've not used it myself). Hoping you'd have a pal or lab assistant with one.

it's been a great while since my official study of statistics (data manipulation) but i'm not seeing a real difference here-yet.

the times all overlap such that even the faster, disqualified, no-lube trial timed slower for two snaps than the fastest time for the slowest lube tested.

The question this raises from me is, what lube did you fail to clean out of the lock? It also looks very good for the Naphtha treatment (lube by residue), as i've used on "otherguns" triggers forever.

Dphariss · « **Reply #51 on:** January 12, 2013, 08:30:38 PM »

Ether, starting fluid, is a pretty good degreaser.

Dan

WadePatton · « **Reply #52 on:** January 12, 2013, 08:46:40 PM »

Quote from: Dphariss on January 12, 2013, 08:30:38 PM

Ether, starting fluid, is a pretty good degreaser.

heck on a hornet too.

new set of "lubes" to test: the residues of: brake clean, carb clean, starting fluid, and lemon pledge.

it'll help the shop smell better.

Shootrj2003 · « **Reply #53 on:** January 12, 2013, 09:05:35 PM »

I don't want to change the subject but for a second,We mostly work on guns here but there is a chance as metal workers we will us mig or tig in a repair,be aware that brake cleaner specifically brakkleen product will under use as a metal cleaner and degreaser prior to welding using argon gas I THINK -follow this up with a better search under welding cautions-will produce chlorine gas very little will mess you up and leave you with permanent damage,it can change your life,I read this in a post inwww.xlforums.net. we are dedicated to HD Sportsters another love in my life.Just safety

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #54 on:** January 12, 2013, 09:36:57 PM »

Dan,
Hadn't thought about ether. That might be the only cleaning step needed. Think a follow-up step with alcohol would be needed?

Quote

it's been a great while since my official study of statistics (data manipulation) but i'm not seeing a real difference here-yet.

the times all overlap such that even the faster, disqualified, no-lube trial timed slower for two snaps than the fastest time for the slowest lube tested.

The question this raises from me is, what lube did you fail to clean out of the lock? It also looks very good for the Naphtha treatment (lube by residue), as i've used on "otherguns" triggers forever.

Wade,
The overlap is one reason these are IMHO statistically insignificant. As far as lube not removed, I think I got that solved after the first cleaning. After that I used plenty of alcohol and used compressed air until no alcohol came out - even from screw threads.

The real surprise was the substantial reduction in range shown by the Ballistol. While it had the slowest average, the lock was far more consistent with this lube. Methodology was the same throughout, so I have no explanation for Ballistol's consistency.

Regards,
Pletch

WadePatton · « **Reply #55 on:** January 12, 2013, 11:45:28 PM »

Quote from: Shootrj2003 on January 12, 2013, 09:05:35 PM

I don't want to change the subject .. a metal cleaner and degreaser prior to welding using argon gas ...

I know personally the man who nearly killed himself with brake clean, but the conditions to create that situation are this: brake cleaner solvents (not residue) burned in the presence of Argon. It put him in the hospital. Steve Garn aka Brew Dude. Here are Steve's own words as printed in American Iron Magazine, August 2009 and again at Steve's own site: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

Here we have no argon nor fire, but yes it is something that EVERY arc welder should know about.

_back to the timing of the lubrication of locks_

i thinks you need to follow up (cleaner) until you get a consistent set of times. IOW, find a "zero". and it's looking like that might not be easy. but then if we can just eliminate three or four "slower" lubes and the re-group those that test faster and re-test them together? This measuring tiny increments of time is messy no?

i asked about the first "dry" run because it is so fast as to get itself disqualified, and then nothing performed that good after such that a partial cleaning of whatever lube you had in there (or another) before might always be the king. looks like a touch of slick residue is all it takes.

fun watching the numbers. This may turn into a lesson of how clean is clean.

thanks Pletch. (i remember dual 5.25 floppies)

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #56 on:** January 13, 2013, 12:27:00 AM »

I need to think about what material is the last step in the rinse before re-lubing. Is there a better fluid than alcohol? Other than ether (starter fluid) does anything leave NO residue? I feel that key to a clean lock means a final rinse with nothing left, including a residue of its own. Any ideas better than alcohol or ether?

Regards,
Pletch

bgf · « **Reply #57 on:** January 13, 2013, 12:49:01 AM »

New "safe" brake cleaner is mostly acetone. There are stronger cleaners, but they are not nice to play with.

I'd suspect the the Chamber grease first, and check if it had any moly (or other friction modifiers) in it. The way they work makes it hard to wash away, which is usually a good thing. Just a thought.

As it is, the Ballistol results (being slowest) make my day, as the cult of Ballistol gets under my skin at times

! I've lost good friends to it.

WadePatton · « **Reply #58 on:** January 13, 2013, 01:18:41 AM »

Quote from: bgf on January 13, 2013, 12:49:01 AM

..., the Ballistol results (being slowest) make my day, as the cult of Ballistol gets under my skin at times ! I've lost good friends to it.

that's hilarious.

Pletch, i'm going to go out on a skinny limb and guess that ultrasonic may be the only way to get all residues gone. Imina do some research. I have a cousin in forensics.

dieselmech570 · « **Reply #59 on:** January 13, 2013, 01:20:38 AM »

interesting test,Thank you for your efforts, still waiting for Rem. oil & 3 in 1. Two that I regularly use.

WadePatton · « **Reply #60 on:** January 13, 2013, 04:02:26 AM »

I sent you some PM's Larry. I'm done reading all that technical stuff for now.

Short answers: Labs use ultrasonic a lot, from a lubricity testing machine manual: Acetone and De-ionized water. OR solution of Lye (NaOH) the NZ way.

Also that compressed air, unfiltered, often contains traces of oil*.

But so long as the cleaning gets you back to "zero" for the session, i call it good.

*Probably what happened with the Ballistol, a micro-spec of compressor oil contaminated it, skewing the results and testing the resolve of Ballistolians everywhere. .

Bull Shannon · « **Reply #61 on:** January 13, 2013, 05:12:42 AM »

Also that compressed air, unfiltered, often contains traces of oil*.
But so long as the cleaning gets you back to "zero" for the session, i call it good.

*Probably what happened with the Ballistol, a micro-spec of compressor oil contaminated it, skewing the results and testing the resolve of Ballistolians everywhere. .

[/quote] Ballistolians-LOL

Would canned air like "Dust-A-Way" remove the chance of trace oil being put back on to the lock being tested? It advertises that it leaves no residue, I wonder if that's true or if "residue" is considered less than X parts per billion?

WadePatton · « **Reply #62 on:** January 13, 2013, 05:24:20 AM »

That may be overkill, and afik there's no reason for anything but gases to come out of those cans. Oil and water contamination in compressed air is routinely addressed with in-line filtration by paint shops and such.

Pletch may have this covered already.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #63 on:** January 13, 2013, 06:22:10 AM »

The problem with a trace of oil in the compressed air was a possibility I hadn't considered. As you probably read I moved my stuff from my garage into my basement when I didn't need to use priming powder and flint. My garage air would have been filtered, but my basement compressor lacks a filter. I can rule out the problem by leaving the stuff in the basement but doing the lock cleaning in the garage. It adds a bit of time to the process, but lock-cleaning takes more time than running the tests anyway.

Wade, I read your PMs and will have to make some decisions about how involved I want to get with all this. If I had a real lab behind me, some of those methods would probably be the answer. Since I'm a retired teacher working from my basement, I may have to settle on the best solvents readily available. I used alcohol as you know, but also have acetone and ether (starter fluid). One of my friends may have a couple more. I'll give this more thought over the weekend and pick the brains of a couple local engineer friends.

Wasn't there a solvent called carbon tetrachloride years ago? Don't think you can get it any more. probably a good thing.

Regards,
Pletch

WadePatton · « **Reply #64 on:** January 13, 2013, 06:36:44 AM »

run an air hose to the basement. tha's how a cracker like me might do it.

what you really need is an apprentice.

heinz · « **Reply #65 on:** January 13, 2013, 04:31:41 PM »

Pletch, Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) may be th ultimate degreaser for thesekinds of tasks, if it is still available. The EPA a few years back determined that if you bathed your pet rat in it 3 times a week t would do him no good, so they have imposed some restrictions. Acetone should be adequate but you could use the 4 dip process, first dip in slightly soapy warm water and the next three in separate acetone baths, letting it more or less dry between dips. This just insures you are going to cleaner acetone dips each pass. Blowing dry would be optional. Thanks for the interesting data.

Heinz

PPatch · « **Reply #66 on:** January 14, 2013, 03:26:43 AM »

Pletch; If you want to know if residue is being left by any of those solvents or the air compresser clean a mirror with ammonia and swab on streaks of the test fluid and spray an area of the mirror with the compressor. let them dry and check for whatever. You could too swab areas with the grease and oils you are using and see how effective your solvents are.

dave

Topknot · « **Reply #67 on:** January 14, 2013, 03:28:30 AM »

Pletch, have you thought about denatured alcohol. IT is used in the music recording studios to clean the heads of the large multi-track recorders. supposed to leave no residue.
topknot

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #68 on:** January 14, 2013, 04:48:06 AM »

As usual you guys help me in thinking. The unfiltered compressed air can be taken care of tomorrow. Wade, I looked over my extra hoses and connections, and I can bring air from an unattached garage into the basement. That should rule out one possible oil residue on the lock.

The rinse is next. Hienz mentioned MEK. I goggled it and read a couple of sources. One mentioned that as a solvent, MEK is very similar to acetone. One difference is that MEK evaporates more slowly. For me that gives the edge to acetone.

I use alcohol and denatured alcohol may make a difference. I used methyl alcohol as in Heet. I don't know if there is a difference in residue left between methyl or denatured. Open to suggestions here.

Heinz also suggested, "Acetone should be adequate but you could use the 4 dip process, first dip in slightly soapy warm water and the next three in separate acetone baths, letting it more or less dry between dips. This just insures you are going to cleaner acetone dips each pass." This methodology could be used with any solvent I chose to use.

In looking over the stats I am beginning to doubt what I know so far. Numbers within a trial vary so widely, I am beginning to look for an unknown variable. The problem is that solvents and methodology used so far have been the same throughout the tests. Is there a variable that widens the data that we haven't anticipated. Just thinking. . .

Regards,
Pletch

mark esterly · « **Reply #69 on:** January 15, 2013, 01:34:23 AM »

pletch

i was wondering about the varied results within the single test myself. it seems there should be less of a range for one product for the test to be really useful. has there been much difference in the appearance of your fake flint? maybe it needs to be a harder substance? just a thought.
regards
mark

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #70 on:** January 15, 2013, 02:58:11 AM »

Today I ran tests on more lubes plus another run of no lube. I have more photos to add but photobucket freezes every time I try to add another photo. The chart below contains both day's work with day 2 at the bottom. I decided to leave in all the no lube groups when I saw that today's was in about the same time category. I also highlighted the fast and slow time in each group. In a couple of cases the fast time and the slow time were next to each other in sequence. The ranking now includes all the trials from both days.

The additional photos may not be worth the effort of fighting photobucket tonight.

I changed cleaning methodology today. First I'm using filtered conpressed air to rule out the possibility of trace amounts of oil when drying the lock. Also, after using warm soapy water and a tooth brush on the lock, I used a series of 4 baths in acetone. I chose acetone over MEK because it evaporates more quickly. The purpose of the 4 baths was explained in an earlier post so I won't go into that again. But I have confidence that trace amounts of oil are not involved in the testing.

After 2 days of timing, I feel that we will not find a super lube that is head and shoulders above the rest. Since the lock seemed faster with no lube, perhaps the trick is how to apply a very small amount. The containers that the oil comes in may play a part in this.

The wide range of times, especially overlapping as they do, make me conclude that lube quality does not influence the mechanical time of the lock. The question then is why not. My gut says that the very small amount of rotation is prehaps too brief to accurate measure the effect of lube. If we were dealing with a machine that rotated a number of revolutions, maybe we could see the difference. I don't know.

If we do not choose a lube for speed, my choice would be to choose a lube for it's ability to increase the life of the lock. I asked this question to Jim at Friendship. His answer was that he would choose a lube with the longevity of the lock in mind. My gut says we should too.

Regards,
Pletch

Topknot · « **Reply #71 on:** January 15, 2013, 04:43:15 AM »

Pletch,Im sure everyone here at ALR appreciates your efforts and hours spent in search of the best lube, I for one certainly do. I also agree with your last statement about a lube that will promote longevity to the lock. your efforts are greatly appreciated!

topknot

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #72 on:** January 15, 2013, 05:26:15 AM »

Because this project has extended through so many pages, I tried to consolidate all the testing into one place. The link below include the process, charts, and more photos. I left the text kind of like a diary of one solution after another.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-lube-test.php

Regards,
Pletch

WadePatton · « **Reply #73 on:** January 15, 2013, 09:46:55 PM »

well, here's my guess.

that the coefficient of friction in this case applies to such a small area (compilation of all the bearing surfaces involved) over such a short movement (period of time) that you are indeed getting good numbers, that

it just doesn't matter.

it's just too small a part of the equation. (which is what you said Pletch, i was reading fasst.)

provided cleanliness and lack of viscosity/temp issues.

Such that, choice of lube should be based on corrosion protection and other issues important to you, and also cold-weather function for those in the GWN* (anything north of the Ohio river

)

that lock-speed is more about tuning and cleanliness-

and MOSTLY about position of powder in the pan.

*Great White North

Scout · « **Reply #74 on:** January 16, 2013, 12:32:40 AM »

A very interesting topic to be sure.
Though not HC, has anyone tried something like Permatex Ultra Slick Engine Assembly Lube ? That stuff is real slippery.
I still have a small bottle of it in my shop when I rebuilt engines back in my motocross racing days.

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Author Topic: Lock lubrication (Read 33750 times)

Shootrj2003