Author Topic: Lock lubrication  (Read 33787 times)

Offline mark esterly

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2013, 03:20:14 AM »
ok i gotta know now.  how fast is .008 of a second  ;D

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2013, 05:41:04 AM »
ok i gotta know now.  how fast is .008 of a second  ;D


Pretty small amount of time, huh.  In flintlock terms - from sear strike to flint touching the frizzen is about .008 seconds. Depends on a number of things like lock make, oil, length of flint, phase of moon, etc. ;D

Regards,
Pletch
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Pletch
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2013, 05:49:55 AM »
I tried one last experiment this morning.  Just for kicks I replaced the Siler I had been using for my "ball bearing" Siler.  This is a Deluxe Large Siler that Sam Everly placed a tiny ball bearing race on both sides of the tumbler - one in the lock plate and the other in the bridle.  This lock has not been on a gun and is used for experimentation, so far.  Below are a couple of photos.  These pics may have been on ALR before. 





I installed in the fixture the same way as before and timed the lock with 3 in 1 oil, as it had been successful before. Below are the ten trials:
.0146
.0142
.0144
.0106
.0138
.0139
.0105
.0135
.0126
.0142
------
.0132 average
.0105 fast trial
.0146 slow trial
.0041 range

The average is one of the faster trials, and the range of scores is quite small.  Many of the other ranges were almost double this one.  Just reporting - I have no explanation.
Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2013, 06:37:15 AM »
ok i gotta know now.  how fast is .008 of a second  ;D


.008 is so fast that if you had 100 of them stacked up together, you'd still have 2/10 of a second left over.

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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2013, 07:33:04 PM »
Anachronistic Sinner, I just spray the internals with Moly Disulfide from the local NAPA. If I feel traditional I reach for the graphite.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2013, 05:54:45 AM »
Anachronistic Sinner, I just spray the internals with Moly Disulfide from the local NAPA. If I feel traditional I reach for the graphite.

Hey Jack,
I reckon that does sound anachronistic.  But, in my defense, I am a diehard experimenter, and have been testing and timing all things relating to flintlocks since the mid 80s. Most are/were reproductions, but I did have the chance to time some originals including a pair owned by Lynton McKenzie.

So, I confess that when I  heard that someone was installing tiny ball braking races on one of Jim's Silers, I had to have one.  It is the smooooothest lock I own.  I own a number of locks like this one that will likely never be on a gun.  This isn't my only indulgence.  I have a couple more locks - owned because of their experimental value, the incredible quality of the lock, or the incredible skill set of the maker. 

So, am I an anachronistic sinner?  Probably.  But I get to enjoy, test, time, and learn from some pretty cool locks.

regards,
Pletch   :)
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Offline Pete G.

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2013, 04:19:16 PM »
If I am interpreting the setup correctly it appears that the time is started when the plunger contacts the sear. Perhaps the small fraction of time that takes place from then to the time that the sear disengages the tumbler could vary enough to skew the total time.

Once this is solved we could move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2013, 05:29:59 PM »
I would think a roller in the mainspring to reduce friction on the tumbler would be a greater gain than bearings on the tumbler shafts.

Dan
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2013, 06:41:22 PM »
If I am interpreting the setup correctly it appears that the time is started when the plunger contacts the sear. Perhaps the small fraction of time that takes place from then to the time that the sear disengages the tumbler could vary enough to skew the total time.

Once this is solved we could move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
Pete,
You are correct that the touching of the brass to the sear starts time rather than the sear releasing the tumbler.  For this experiment I didn't worry about that since all the time measurements were done exactly the same way.  Starting time with the beginning of tumbler rotation can be done; it's just more complicated.  But since you asked, The elapsed time from sear contact to the beginning of tumbler rotation averages .0019 sec and represents about 5% of total lock time. (This is from timing I did for the JHAT Vol. IV in 1991.) To measure that, I set infrared gate so that when the cock began to move time was stopped. To complete the picture, the stop gate was placed at other intervals to separate other segments of the total time.

Sear time. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0019 - 5%
Cock movement to frizzen. . . ..0075 - 19%
Frizzen to end movement . . . ..0057 - 15%
Powder burn time . . . . . . . . . .0237 - 61%
Total ignition time. . . . . . . . . .0388

Now we're ready for pin dancing. :)


Regards,
Pletch

PS: The lock used for the JHAT article was the same lock I usd for this experiment. Jim did a serious overhall just recently.
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2013, 06:58:34 PM »
I would think a roller in the mainspring to reduce friction on the tumbler would be a greater gain than bearings on the tumbler shafts.

Dan
Hi Dan,
You could be right. That addressed the issue of sliding friction. I'd also include the frizzen sliding on the frizzen spring. I think this is where a thin grease on the tumbler and frizzen spring that resists being wiped off may be a good thing.

This test did not address how long the lubes stayed in place.  It's possible we could see a times slowing had I run 100 trials instead of ten.  Whether a lube stays in place is possibily more important that time.

While it is the smoothest, this bearing lock is not the fastest lock I have.  The testbed lock averaged .0388 back in the 1991 article.  It takes a really good lock to break .0400 sec.  An original J. Manton was .0297 and a Staudenmayer .0299 (both owned by Lynton McKenzie) The Manton might have broken .0250 if I had Swiss Null B back in 1991.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2013, 10:23:28 PM »
I have seen a number of mainsprings with a roller on them and I have
one with that feature only the roller is flattened from locking up.
I used to make mainsprings for rolling block rifles with a roller and
had one on my 40-90-420.
I have never seen an antique lock with a bearing race in either the tumbler
hole or the bridle.

Bob Roller

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2013, 11:41:43 PM »
My 2 cents worth...  I think all this worry and fuss we put toward friction, lubricants, rollers, silky smooth feeling locks etc. is largely for not.  If I'm not mistaken, the siler with the roller bearings etc. was not all that fast, though it certainly felt pretty smooth.  I think that by far the largest factor is torque on the tumbler or in other words mainspring strength.  My gut tells me the next thing is cock throw.  I think that influencing factors get pretty small after this.  What would be really interesting, but perhaps difficult, would be to design a set of experiments in an attempt to isolate and rank features of a lock that contribut to speed or lack there of.  Here's something else that has run through my mind.  Take a siler lock, get rid of the fly, drop the full cock notch a little to decrease cock throw, and put an extremely powerful mainspring on it and see what the times are.  I think you could get down to the original Manton lock times or perhaps better them depending on how powerful the spring is.  This is of course just me running my mouth, gut feel, and speculation though. 

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2013, 02:37:17 AM »
My 2 cents worth...  I think all this worry and fuss we put toward friction, lubricants, rollers, silky smooth feeling locks etc. is largely for not.  If I'm not mistaken, the siler with the roller bearings etc. was not all that fast, though it certainly felt pretty smooth.  I think that by far the largest factor is torque on the tumbler or in other words mainspring strength.  My gut tells me the next thing is cock throw.  I think that influencing factors get pretty small after this.  What would be really interesting, but perhaps difficult, would be to design a set of experiments in an attempt to isolate and rank features of a lock that contribut to speed or lack there of.  Here's something else that has run through my mind.  Take a siler lock, get rid of the fly, drop the full cock notch a little to decrease cock throw, and put an extremely powerful mainspring on it and see what the times are.  I think you could get down to the original Manton lock times or perhaps better them depending on how powerful the spring is.  This is of course just me running my mouth, gut feel, and speculation though. 

Jim,
Your comments made me think back to the original purpose of the experiment.  As these discussions develop it's easy for me to forget what I was doing this for.

My original goal was to use mechanical speed to see if one lube or lube class would stand out above the others.  My premise was that if a lube was significantly better, it would show up in mechanical speed.  I commented after the testing was done that I did not feel that we would find that lube. 

One question that remains unanswered is how well the lube stays in place as opposed to being wiped off.   I think one would have to run many more trials to see if times gradually slowed.  After what I went through here, I don't want to tackle that.

So what did I learn? IMHO there is not likely a lube well above the rest with regard to friction.  Is there a lube better than others as far as staying in place.  Could be. I don't know.  Will a lube make a lock significantly faster. No.

To your point about increasing lock speed, I agree.  Reduction of mass and increased spring strength would be important.  Geometry, especially relating to the tumbler/main spring contact would have a lot to do with torque applied. 

Regarding the bearing Siler, is wasn't super fast.  (It wasn't slow either.) It was very consistent however - I guess smooth doesn't hurt.  BTW I think Sam told me the springs on the bearing lock are milder.  It might be interesting to replace the springs on the bearing Siler with a spring set from one of my Deluxe Silers just to see what would happen.

As always, I appreciate your comments, Jim. 

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2013, 03:44:12 AM »
Yes, your lube experiment here makes it quite clear to me that you're not turning a dog into a speed demon by changing the oil.  not changing much with lube at all.  That as Jim says, the speed it Out There, in all that other stuff.

thanks evermore for all the work you've done Pletch.  PC mythbusting yo.  ;)

Hold to the Wind

Dean2

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Re: Lock lubrication
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2013, 06:49:04 PM »
A lot of work but very interesting outcome. If you have more lubes to test I would be interested to see how standard Hoppes number 9 fairs as well as some of the dry graphite lubes. I know in cold weather regular oil can really slow lock times so you might want to freeze your various lubes to -15 F and see what their pour characteristics look like. It will give you a good idea as to the suitability of the lube in cold weather.

Great of you to post the results of all this work. Thanks.