forged barrel

[David R. Pennington]

Ever since I first saw how original barrels were made I've been fascinated. To me it seemed an impossibility. I'm learning some blacksmithing and how to forge weld. Recently I found an old piece of wrought iron and welded up an axe in the forge with a piece of plow steel for a bit. I couldn't believe how much easier it welded than the modern steel.
Now I really want to see it done first hand. I'm trying to talk some of my blacksmithing friends into a barrel making project. Any one out there done it?

[Mark Elliott]

Jon Laubach has been doing a barrel forging demo each July at Dixons.   I don't know if he will be doing it again this July or not.   He hasn't been feeling 100% of late.   However, his son Chris knows how to do it and has helped out along with a few other guys.    Chris is in here every now and again.   Perhaps he can speak to whether there will be a barrel forging demo again this Summer.     In the past,  I think Jon let anyone work with him that wanted to.    You know Jon and Chris produced a DVD on how to forge a barrel.  Have you seen it?    It is available from American Pioneer Video http://www.americanpioneervideo.com/.   They also have videos on finishing the barrel, and reaming and rifling a barrel.

[David R. Pennington]

Thanks, I'll ccheck out the video. Havn't made it to Dixons yet. Would like to.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I have done barrel forging several times.  One thing to remember is that the final forged barrel length will be a lot longer than the original blank.  I started with iron about 36 inches long and ended up with forged barrels about 44 inches long with final length of about 40 - 42 inches long as both ends need to be trimmed back to get sound metal.  On one I had to trim it back to 38 inches and make it oct to rnd as my workmanship on that one was poor.

A thought for those who have forged barrels.  The swamp, or taper and flare, is somewhat a result of the barrel forger not wishing to forge at the barrel end.  You find when you forge wrought iron at a free end that it will often split along the grain, I call this a broom straw split, which is a major reason I have to trim the forging back several inches.  Perhaps if the barrel was rough forged as a heavy tube, then lengthened by forging the middle section thinner until the proper length was reached, this would give a plausible reason for the swamped shape.  Any thoughts on this possibility?

Jim

[wmaser]

I think you'd be surprised how many people have forged their own barrels. Forging, draw filing, reaming and rifling  afterwards to complete the project makes it quite an undertaking. I wonder how many go on to forge a second one. The price of a store bought barrel begins to look very attractive.

[wmaser]

  One thing to remember is that the final forged barrel length will be a lot longer than the original blank.  I started with iron about 36 inches long and ended up with forged barrels about 44 inches long with final length of about 40 - 42 inches long as both ends need to be trimmed back to get sound metal.  On one I had to trim it back to 38 inches and make it oct to rnd as my workmanship on that one was poor.

Jim

My last barrel began as a 45" skelp, grew to 47" and by the time I trimmed the split and mangled ends became a 43" barrel.  This was OK because my rifling machine can only accommodate a 43" barrel. Also, I was going for a .50 cal but had to ream to .54 to get rid of the weld seam in the bore. In any case it turned out to be a .54 cal tack driver.

[Mark Elliott]

I would very much like to forge a wrought iron barrel, but I really don't feel like I am physically up to doing it all by myself.   I was wondering if there was anybody else in Central VA who might like to get together over the Winter  to work on a barrel or two.   We could get together at one or the other of our houses Saturday afternoons to work until the either the coal burns our or the propane tank is empty.    I could contribute  four feet of 1 1/2" third run wrought for the project.   We could make one rifle barrel or two pistol barrels.   Two pistol barrels might be best to start.    I have had the 1 1/2 stock some time.  It was just too much for me to hammer out by myself.    Two heads and four arms are better than one/two.

[tim crowe]

Mark
To bad your aren't closer . I have 2 pistol barrels and a rifle barrel that I am working on. Barrel welding for me is a winter sport. I suggest wearing polarized sunglasses so you can see what your forging , looking at the high heats bothers my eyes. Best of luck to you , it is satisfying to complete a welded barrel.
Look up Ken Guy he might be closer and available to forge one. He could be your striker

[pathfinder]

Conner Prairie just outside of Inianapolis offers classes forging reaming and rifling a pistol barrel.

If I had any shoulders or hand's left,I'd be there! I missed this years classes due to my daughters death,but I WILL be there next year!

[Mark Elliott]

Maybe I should go up to the local high school looking for an apprentice to do the heavy lifting.

[bgf]

Maybe I should go up to the local high school looking for an apprentice to do the heavy lifting.

Mark,
I know you are joking, but one of my younger brothers was only 12 when I (re?)built him an old forge, and by high school he could forge-weld and make just about anything.  He spent years as a farrier (after horseshoeing school) until his back made it too difficult (now he's just a welder and general fabricator for a manufacturer).  Ask around, you might find somebody in your area who has similar interests or knows someone that does.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I have been doing some primary research on what I call the "Remington method" of barrel making.  This involves drilling a short, stout rod of iron, like a really heavy pistol barrel, then forging it out to a much longer length.  In this way Remington made barrels without the weld, at least some research shows that this was his method.

I know that in forging, the barrel grows significantly in length while the central hole remains open.  I have a couple of large wrought iron studs, really nice quality iron.  Whenever I get a round tuit I would like to experiment with drilling the blank stud and later forging to length.  I believe that the forging process will not close the central hole to the point that a reaming rod will not be able to follow the existing, smaller,  hole.  We do know that "cast steel" gun barrels were made in this way in the late 1840's from descriptions in patent applications.  As is usual with this type of primary research, the answer will only come after we try to replicate the process.

Jim

[Dennis Glazener]

Guys,

I have been doing some primary research on what I call the "Remington method" of barrel making.  This involves drilling a short, stout rod of iron, like a really heavy pistol barrel, then forging it out to a much longer length.  In this way Remington made barrels without the weld, at least some research shows that this was his method.

I know that in forging, the barrel grows significantly in length while the central hole remains open.  I have a couple of large wrought iron studs, really nice quality iron.  Whenever I get a round tuit I would like to experiment with drilling the blank stud and later forging to length.  I believe that the forging process will not close the central hole to the point that a reaming rod will not be able to follow the existing, smaller,  hole.  We do know that "cast steel" gun barrels were made in this way in the late 1840's from descriptions in patent applications.  As is usual with this type of primary research, the answer will only come after we try to replicate the process.

Jim

I know zip about this process but didn't some of the Europeans "hammer" forge barrels around a mandrel? Looks like this would work better than later having to open the central hole with a reaming rod.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

The Remington barrel blanks were sometimes cast steel
that was cast around a mandrel that gave the gunmaker a
pilot hole to work with instead of banging on it with a hammer
or trying to drill a long hole with inadequate equipment.
I have owned several old caplock rifles with Remington barrels
that are marked "Cast Steel".

Bob Roller

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

The term "cast steel" is a product that we call today "crucible steel".  The process of making cast steel was developed by Benjamin Huntsman in the 18th c and involved the complete melting of iron to a liquid form, ridding the melt completely of slag, and casting the liquid iron into ingots - "cast steel".  When the original charge to be melted was "blister steel" the resulting "cast steel" was hardenable carbon steel - like todays 1095 steel.  When the original charge was good wrought iron the resulting "cast steel" was not hardenable. 

When we find antique tools marked "cast steel" it is very similar to 1095, straight carbon steel.  When we find a gun barrel marked "cast steel" probably the carbon content is too low to harden.  After the initial casting of the material into an ingot, the "cast steel" was formed/forged to the needed shape by hammering/rolling.  Certainly the final shape we see as an antique "cast steel" part was not cast in the final form we see, as in a gun barrel.  Modern steel starts as a casting today as the material is initially formed, but we do not consider our I - beams to be castings, even though the steel started life as a casting.

So, when we see a gun barrel marked "cast steel" the only casting was in the original ingot form, to get to a 1" octagon was the result of a lot of hot forging/rolling.

The Remington family operated a finery where large wrought iron bars were hot forged into various shapes more useable for blacksmithing.  The difference between forming a 1" octagon rod from a heavy bar and forming a 1" octagon gun barrel is simply the presence of a centrally drilled hole in the starting bar.  At least that is the premise that needs additional hands on investigation.

Does this make any sense???

Jim

[whetrock]

In this way Remington made barrels without the weld, at least some research shows that this was his method.
...
I believe that the forging process will not close the central hole to the point that a reaming rod will not be able to follow the existing, smaller,  hole.  
Jim

I know zip about this process but didn't some of the Europeans "hammer" forge barrels around a mandrel? Looks like this would work better than later having to open the central hole with a reaming rod.
Dennis

Your explanation is good, Jim. What do you think about Dennis' suggestion that you would still want/need to use a mandrel?  Without a mandrel, seems to me (guessing here, based only on experience with other material) that the hammering would close the hole somewhat, or at least it could be kept open more consistently with the use of a small caliber mandrel. Your descriptions seem to suggest that you don't think that would be necessary, or did we misunderstand you?

[chris laubach]

Ever since I first saw how original barrels were made I've been fascinated. To me it seemed an impossibility. I'm learning some blacksmithing and how to forge weld. Recently I found an old piece of wrought iron and welded up an axe in the forge with a piece of plow steel for a bit. I couldn't believe how much easier it welded than the modern steel.
Now I really want to see it done first hand. I'm trying to talk some of my blacksmithing friends into a barrel making project. Any one out there done it?

David,
We will be at the Dixon's gunmakers fair putting on our barrel forging demo. If you are able to make the fair please stop by. If you have any question you can PM me. Also if you have not seen the video that my father and I did on barrel forging. I would highly recommend watching it. I think you will find that you will have a lot of your questions answered in this Video. He also forges a breech pin and a boring bit in the video.

C.Laubach

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Thanks for the interest in researching barrel forging processes.  Maybe someday we will be able to recover some of the lost skills and figure out HDTDT (How Did They Do That).  The following is taken from patent application 27,539 describing the "old method" of forging gun barrels without the weld.  The improvement in the patent application does include the use of a mandrel.  Apparently, before this patent idea, barrels were forged to length without a mandrel.  I envision that this resulted in the reduction in size of the central hole, but not to the extent that the boring reamer could not follow the still existing, but smaller hole.

"Drill a hole through the whole length of a short cylinder or bar, which was then forced through plates with graduated holes or passed through rollers as used in the old process of rolling iron, but without the use of mandrels until the required length was attained"

This is from patent application 27,539 Manufacture of Gun Barrels, J. H. Burton, Mar 20, 1860

What would be interesting to do is to try the method of barrel forging that Mr. Burton describes as the "old method".

Jim

[JTR]

Does this make any sense???

Sure does, and an excellent explanation of the common misconception of the meaning of 'Cast Steel'. 

John

[tim crowe]

The Book " Quest for the Indian Trade Gun" by Robert Heath covers steel/iron making and the different methods to make welded barrels , both hand forged and the Remington Method.
The book in my opinion was titled wrong it should have been titled " Barrel Manufacturing Methods and Materials during the 1700 and 1800s".

[flintriflesmith]

Does this make any sense???

Sure does, and an excellent explanation of the common misconception of the meaning of 'Cast Steel'. 

Some of you might benefit from looking at ths short and very introductory article on cast iron, wrought iron, steel and cast steel. Cast steel is addressed in the next to last paragraph.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/ironandsteel.htm
Gary

[JCKelly]

Ned Roberts, in The Muzzle Loading Cap-Lock Rifle, page 7 describes barrels made of cast steel, both drilled from solid & blanks with the hole already through. Apparently Brockway preferred barrels drilled from the solid.
Remington started out making wrought iron barrels, but later became a major supplier of cast steel barrel blanks for gun makers. A large number of Michigan cap-lock rifles have barrels stamped "REMINGTON" near the breech end.

One ought carefully proof test barrels forged from iron to make sure there are no bad welds in them. At Springfield Armory, using a trip hammer to forge, I believe there was maybe 10% loss in proof testing, and over 25% loss of barrels hand forged at Harpers Ferry.

A very good description of the whole process is given by Merritt Roe Smith in Harpers Ferry Armory and the New Technology If you plan to forge weld your own barrel, I urge you to read this book.

[David R. Pennington]

 I've been out of town for a couple days away from the computer and cell phone. Lots of interesting replies. I'm sure it would be much cheaper to store buy barrels but to me the fascination with building is also understanding how the originals were done. Mark I wish you were closer as well. Five or six hour drive one way wouldn't leave me much energy for forging. I've heard old wrought iron wagon tires make good skelps. I've also wondered about the length. I know that the thing would grow in length as you forged. For those of you who have done this I have some more questions. About how much time did it take? How many sessions at the forge? How many hands involved? I'm sure this project would eat up a lot of coal as well.

[chris laubach]

Here are a couple pictures and a video from our demo at Dixon's gunmakers fair.
http://www.coloniallongrifles.com/id5.html

C.Laubach

[wmaser]

What would be interesting to do is to try the method of barrel forging that Mr. Burton describes as the "old method".

Jim

Several months ago I forged a barrel using a method very much like the one you describe. In my case, however,  I started with a very heavy walled steel pipe. My best recollection is that it was approx. a 1" ID and 2" OD 18"long. I drew this out at the forge to a length of 44". I did use a 1/2" mandrel to maintain the bore, which was constantly becoming stuck in the bore. This, I believe, was due to the length of embedment into the bore as the tube was lengthened. I reamed the bore to .62 cal. smoothbore. I turned the barrel on a lathe 35" tapered round from 1" OD at the breach end with two wedding bands. the first 9" at the breech was draw filed octagon 1" diameter across the flats. The forging process was alot more labor intensive than I had anticipated.
It lies, now, in a walnut stock with handmade lock and furniture. A fine NW trade gun.