Best Kept Secret

[WadePatton]

here is that PRB's can be loaded and fired continuously, given a the proper bore/ball/patch combination with a proper lube.

Do we keep the secret or share it?  

It seems that the rest of the world is convinced that BP needs wiping all the time.  It's slightly entertaining to read all the concoctions and procedures and such.  One guy admits taking more than one gun to the range, shooting each one until it won't load, then going home and cleaning 'em all.  

I was looking up info and bumped into some "otherworld" threads WRT BP and subs-and wiping.

How confusing would it be for these folks to see someone load and shoot 10-30-50 rounds w/o a wipe?

Sure, not everybody makes it work but many do:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15255.0

And also, previously on ALR:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.0

(rained in again)  

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Wade, we've discussed this subject dozens of times on this forum.  I did not check out the threads you indicated, but loading all day without having to wipe is no secret.  
I think the first prerequisite to shooting without cleaning, is to have a good bore.  If the bore is frosted or pitted, for whatever reason, it will accumulate fouling that in short order will require wiping before reloading.  If it is in perfect shape, it has the potential to be loaded all day without having to be cleaned.
Secondly, the patch/ball/lube combination must be correct for this kind of shooting.  The ball should be pure lead, and five to ten thousandths of an inch smaller than the bore, in a rifle.  The patch must be of sufficient thickness to engrave its weave onto the lead during the loading sequence.  If it engraves its weave onto the ball, it will also be filling the grooves in the bore.  A patch of this thickness will at the same time carry enough lubricant to clean ALL of the fouling left by the previous shot, from the muzzle to the powder charge.  The result of this is that you are shooting that ball out of a perfectly clean bore every time, all day long.
Thirdly, a load like this will require either a short starter, or a technique where two hands on a short section of the ramrod can press the ball/patch into the muzzle.  Dan Phariss demonstrated this once in a short series of pics, or a video...can't recall which it was.  This requires some strength and determination, but it is not difficult to do.  Once the ball is pressed into the bore, the ramrod sends it down to the charge in 10" - 12" sections, so as not to break the rod.  It is easier to seat a ball with this combination of patch and lube, than the same ball with a thin ineffective patch/lube running over accumulated fouling.
Whether this loading technique is historically correct is not the question.  If historically hunters or target shooters loaded combinations that could be thumb started, they too would have had to clean between shots.
There - the secret's out!

[hanshi]

That's the way I always shoot: till I run out of ammo.  Actually sometimes I will wipe the bore every 15 to 20 rounds but not always even then.

[Kermit]

All thse who think .32 and smaller have to be wiped constantly need to re-read that stuff. One "secret" for the wee bores is the ramrod. The wood rod in my .25 is decorative.

[WadePatton]

Taylor, you miss my gist.  But I appreciate your effort in posting.

Sure, you and I and the rest _here_ know.  I quote those threads just to show that all the details have been hashed out here before-so those who don't know can learn how to leave the wiping behind.

But I bumped into some of the ROW (Rest of World) recently and they have no idea.  NONE at all.  I know we're not trying to keep it a secret.  Just funny how all the other modes of operation persist.  

I just wonder how a wiper would respond if he shot next to a non-wiper who demonstrated a higher rate of accurate fire?

There are none so blind... i reckon.

[Maven]

I used to be an habitual bore wiper because that's what informed opinion at the time recommended. (I've now seen the light!)  Since I've switched to liquid patch lubes*, at least when the temperature is above freezing, I rarely wipe the bore and can't see where it's had a negative effect on accuracy for my present rifles + 1 trade gun.  Btw, I once owned a .50cal. Dixie Tenn. Mt. rifle that shot more accurately if the bore was wiped after each shot.


*saliva, commercial moose milk, 1 Ballistol : 6 or 7 H20, Friendship Speed Juice, Taylor's own super secret recipe.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

We shoot here all winter long, as long as the temperature stays above - 12 C.  I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat - sorry.  I use pure neatsfoot oil for hunting in that weather, and for the trail shoot too.  I've come to discard the antifreeze and murphy's oil soap, because the alcohol sucks the heat out of my fingers in quick order.  I use precut round patches saturated with the oil, in a lozenge tin kept on the inside pocket of my capote.  That's the only way I can keep my fingers from going numb.  Funny, it didn't do that forty years ago.

[Roger Fisher]

We shoot here all winter long, as long as the temperature stays above - 12 C.  I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat - sorry.  I use pure neatsfoot oil for hunting in that weather, and for the trail shoot too.  I've come to discard the antifreeze and murphy's oil soap, because the alcohol sucks the heat out of my fingers in quick order.  I use precut round patches saturated with the oil, in a lozenge tin kept on the inside pocket of my capote.  That's the only way I can keep my fingers from going numb.  Funny, it didn't do that forty years ago.

$#*!, you think you get numb now,   wait a couple or few years

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Roger, I appreciate your honesty, if not your optimism.

[WadePatton]

temperature stays above - 12 C.  I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat -

here let me translate for us without a dual-scale thermometer: -12C = 10.4 F

which i find tolerable in the absence of a breeze. but i'm way down here and i only get to see that a few time per year if at all.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Pls. don't translate that as a complaint.  I love this place, and it's weather.

[WadePatton]

Part of my point is that we're not selling anything.

That any Jim Bob or Tom who puts his face on a SUB powder IS selling something and he has to make claims and promises to sell it.

The two claims i see are "more power" and "less fouling" and the kids go on and on and on about the less fouling.  

As if fouling were a big problem.  But then it IS a big problem if you Don't Know how to deal with it.  And they don't so there you go, a bunch of guys that hate the nasty old, hard to source, BP because it (get this) _smells bad_ and leaves boxcar loads of fouling in your barrel every time you pull the trigger.  

No one "out there" has any clue as to the horrible things SUB powder does to metal.  I quit any association with Subs purely on those grounds (and two pitted bbls).  

But the enlightened (most of us here) know that BP fouling doesn't have to be a problem.  

It's a shame that more folks don't learn these things.  It has taken me years to discover this.  Sometimes this interweb helps, but also this is where i found all the comical commentary on the wiping and concoctions and such that, i'm afraid -MOST- other barrel stuffers think is par for the course.

But then I don't suppose we want everybody knowing...sometimes a crowd changes the game.

[WadePatton]

Pls. don't translate that as a complaint.  I love this place, and it's weather.

not at all. population density pretty much determines my tolerance for anywhere.  I do appreciate a good solid frozen over months of mush.  here comes the rain again...

[Osprey]

I tried it for the second time yesterday.  Tried it a year ago shooting a 16 smoothbore in a match on a clear fall day and that barrel got so crudded up I couldn't even load a bare ball by the end of it.  Yesterday I was using a .45 rifle and wonder lube patches, on a damp, 50 degree (Farenheit), foggy day and had great results.  In fact the guys with me that were running cleaning patches kept having misfires/clatches and I never did. 

Most of our shooters always clean between shots, as I typcially have always done, but it seemed to work well yesterday.  Weather maybe?

One thing that worries me though, is the possibility of an ember on a quick reload, damp cleaning patches always took care of that worry for me.  Opinions?

[WadePatton]

embers, easy they make you follow the first rule of all gun safety, muzzle control.  if an ember is going to light something it's going to be loose powder flowing into the bbl. 

Also that with a no-wipe shooting combo, there's less crud in the bbl to hold a hot spot.

And yes, the humidity is a big factor.  Clear Fall days are quite dry as a rule and that, according to my reading, is going to test your combination. 

still on the sidelines...

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Not quite Wade.  I've seen an ember fire a charge twice in my time, and both happened during seating the ball with the rod.  It seems you can pour loose powder onto a smoldering ember and all's fine until you add the hydraulic effect of the ball coming down onto it.  In both cases the injury sustained was from gas cutting - the charge leaving the muzzle.  Ramrod launched like a rocket and ball - who knows where.  Luckily, as the rod is being suddenly launched the driving hand is blown clear enough of the muzzle to avoid the exiting ball.  But the gases leave an awful wound - stitches required.  You might want to consider that the next time you and your buds try to take a cannon emplacement from the front.  Take out the guy with the linstock first.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The ramrod pushing the ball blows air by the ember.......bang!  May be why the old guys used to blow down the bore.. to burn out or blow the embers out the touch hole???

[Al Lapp]

Dr.Tim; I guess I'm one of those old guys that have the bad habit of blowing down the Bbl. But after over 40 years of shooting black powder off and on. I can say I have never had a problem.  Sorry, old habits are hard to break.   Al

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Blowing down the bore puts 100 % humidity down there, which does two things - well three then.  1st:  softens fouling 2nd:  extinguishes a potential ember, and 3rd:  puts you in dire jeopardy by putting your body over the muzzle.  Al, I've done it all my adult life as well, but don't anymore.  I could tell you some stories...

[Bob Roller]

Blowing ACROSS the muzzle to create a vacuum seems to be an
acceptable way to evacuate the bore of smoke. I do it and have for
years.There is no way a just fired muzzle loader can fire again but
I still won't blow directly into the muzzle.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have to tell you the story.  I  have this short 'video' permanently etched in my brain.
It happened about 1980 or so.  A group of us were on the line taking turns shooting at a gong at 200 yards.  Wilf's turn rolled around, and he stepped to the post and capped his rifle.  He aimed, and fired.  Only the cap went off.  As quick as thought, he dropped the butt to the ground and blew down the barrel.  It happened and was over, without disaster, thankfully, before anyone could react.  He thought blowing down the barrel would show if it was loaded, or not, I guess.  It was.  Or, he was so used to blowing down the bore, that having fired the rifle, it was the next thing to do.  It could have been ...unthinkable!
I for one, now adhere to the practice of not blowing down the bore.

[WadePatton]

ahhh,  (and yes i've gas-cut myself, but not badly, (cylinder gap))

safe in theory, but a bad habit to develop.

i'm old enough to consider those i'd leave behind.  

thanks for the education.  and yes, i failed to consider the fanning of the ember with air trapped ahead of the ball.

IS there a correlation between these ember-cidents and how fouled the bore was?

I'd like to hang on to the notion that a wipe-free loading combination would be safest in this regard.  that the lingering ember would be something more likely found in a "5-shots wiper" (where the shooter wipes or can't load the 6th)  Where after 3 or 4 shots, the accumulated fouling* in the bore has more places to hang an ember.

*yes this is what we strive to avoid, but seems to be commonplace and now shows a bit of a safety issue.

Is there truth in that notion?

 please re-direct me if there has been a good discussion of this already.

[Roger Fisher]

ahhh,  (and yes i've gas-cut myself, but not badly, (cylinder gap))

safe in theory, but a bad habit to develop.

i'm old enough to consider those i'd leave behind.  

thanks for the education.  and yes, i failed to consider the fanning of the ember with air trapped ahead of the ball.

IS there a correlation between these ember-cidents and how fouled the bore was?

I'd like to hang on to the notion that a wipe-free loading combination would be safest in this regard.  that the lingering ember would be something more likely found in a "5-shots wiper" (where the shooter wipes or can't load the 6th)  Where after 3 or 4 shots, the accumulated fouling* in the bore has more places to hang an ember.

*yes this is what we strive to avoid, but seems to be commonplace and now shows a bit of a safety issue.

Is there truth in that notion?

 please re-direct me if there has been a good discussion of this already.

Your last question::: Yes there has been...At Length!  LOOOOONG but important.

[Roger Fisher]

I have to tell you the story.  I  have this short 'video' permanently etched in my brain.
It happened about 1980 or so.  A group of us were on the line taking turns shooting at a gong at 200 yards.  Wilf's turn rolled around, and he stepped to the post and capped his rifle.  He aimed, and fired.  Only the cap went off.  As quick as thought, he dropped the butt to the ground and blew down the barrel.  It happened and was over, without disaster, thankfully, before anyone could react.  He thought blowing down the barrel would show if it was loaded, or not, I guess.  It was.  Or, he was so used to blowing down the bore, that having fired the rifle, it was the next thing to do.  It could have been ...unthinkable!
I for one, now adhere to the practice of not blowing down the bore.

Thanks Taylor:::  I have seen that done once with a Bess and twice with cussin rifles Got Mit Us!

[TMerkley]

Sorry guys,

99% of the time, I will wipe to eliminate embers.  I keep a smaller caliber bore brush with a patch on it with a little oil on it to knock the embers out with out leaving too much oil in the bore.  I do this when hunting as well which gives me a few more seconds to get my wits about what is going on, where the deer went an was it hit well enough, etc...

There have been a couple of times where I did not have the brush and patch and was very leery of putting more powder down the tube.  Just the way I was trained in 4H as a kid.  We used to return the rifle to the bench and clean for the next student.  Habit.