Best Kept Secret

[WadePatton]

okay then, no need for rehash here.

SO

back to NO WIPING.  and my understanding of it.

That with a oil/spit saturated patch for walking and other match shoots, is not a difficult combination to arrive at (for any given bore).

BUT that when using a hunting grease/tallow, 'tis a bit more difficult.  Say like squirrel hunting where one should have multiples of shots. To this end, I am concerned with my deer tallow concoction.  It has been written that beeswax helps it "clean up".  Anyone care to speak to this.  (Yes I have read every word of every Tallow discussion that search will uncover here.)  thanks!

Is paper cartridges the way to go to fend off those marauding bushybritches?

[Jerry V Lape]

As a Trainer of instructors for the NMLRA, I have to present the material in accordance with their safety doctrine.  Two issues come into this all the time.  We teach the use of a dampened patch to wipe between shots for the purpose of extinguishing embers.  We also teach not to blow down the barrel as it creates the situations such a cited by Taylor earlier and which has resulted in death at a range some time ago (I am told).  Since I also shoot a little BPCR I know the benefit of a breath or two through the bore to soften fouling.  So I suggest if you want to blow through the bore you should consider using a blow tube made of a piece of flexible tubing sufficiently long to allow you to keep your head away from the muzzle.  As to not wiping and experiencing an ember igniting the charge, I would suggest you work the ramrod without having your hand over the end of it.  I do know personally of an incident where an individual was saved any injury because the rod passed through his grip and knocked his hand away in time to allow the ball and gasses to pass by harmlessly. 

[WadePatton]

we got all offa track here.  suggest new threads for the splinters if anyone wants to.

[smylee grouch]

If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?

[bgf]

If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?

"Sorta" clean -- just minor fouling from one shot, BUT there's a bunch of crud below the ball seat that doesn't harm anything unless it is messed with.  Some people don't go any further down with wiping, to avoid pushing fouling into the breach and vent, others clean the gun entirely between rounds.  In hot, humid weather, I have better luck not wiping: sometimes fouling gets pushed down and builds up in the breach, causing ignition problems.  If I do wipe, I usually use both sides of a patch and pick the vent aggressively before loading.  If you are going to wipe thoroughly all the way down, wipe every time.  Waiting 5 or 10 shots seems reasonable, but in my experience (and that's all I have to offer) the fouling at the breech is often heavy enough by then to be a problem, whereas it isn't that bad for just one shot. 

One thing Taylor said earlier that is really important (and I hope I'm not misrepresenting him in this paraphrase): the bore needs to be smooth and in good condition and the load has to be good and snug to allow shooting with out wiping.  If you can't reload easily without wiping, either the bore is rough or your load is too loose causing excess fouling. 

[WadePatton]

If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?

not at all, it's going to pick up the very same fouling that your PRB will pick up on the way to be seated.  the trick is-that the PRB combo is tight enough (and the fouling soft enough) to get 99% of it.  this crud sits atop the charge and gets mostly blown out by the next shot.

it may seem counter-intuitive before you really think about it.  but done properly, each PRB wipes the bore of the previous shot, so it's not "no wipe" it's ONE wipe, not counting the "rewipe" of the obturated  ball coming back out (getting that last 1%) when the charge is touched off.  

shiny bore, big ball, thick patch, and "generous" radius and polish at the crown are key elements  i am told.

so long as these things come together, there is no cumulative effect, or build up from continuous shooting.  which is double dang dee dapper dan dandy in my book and in those who shoot with Daryl and Taylor and 'em.  

fix me if i'm wrong.

+++

this is how it's done, vid starts right after balls started.  

from other thread (after not wiping ~50 shots):

 We had both shot off close to 50 shots without wiping when this video was taken. I see no loading difficulty with either gun, mine a .45 rifle, and Hatchet Jack's a 20 bore smoothie.  This is normal loading practise for both of us - we were in no hurry, but focused on loading for the camera.

[SPG]

Gentlemen,

In the interest of Science I'd like to see a ten-shot string shot without wiping at 60 yards from a rest so we could compare it to what we are doing at our Cody turkey matches.

This dog is never too old to learn a new trick.

Steve

[Standing Bear]

Agree but suggest a 10 shot string at 100 yds with a heavy bench gun and scope on a calm day.

Just trying to take out the variables.
TC

[hanshi]

I think we're starting to get "out of context".  Obviously a snug prb with a good lube does take out much of the fouling with each shot.  I know this because I've wiped after one shot and then after 20 with little change in the amount of fouling on the patch.  While I doubt 99% of the fouling is removed with each shot, a great deal of it IS removed.  Grease lubes, in my experience, don't remove fouling.  Using everything from Crisco to Natural Lube 1000, I've been lucky to get three reloads without rod-breaking seating force.  With spit, Black Solve and especially Hoppes BP lube, the 20th prb goes down a easily as the first.  Lubes such as these don't "gum up" like the greases.  In the woods I always use NL 1000 for the first load.  This way if I don't shoot I can leave loaded till the next time.

[WadePatton]

It's not about bench shooting, it's about walking and shooting competitively and maybe "high target count" hunting. 

seems that more fiddling is the way of the bench.   

[pathfinder]

I'd rather not wipe between shot's. MY reason is because I put the touch hole right at the face of the breech plug,actually I have to cut a ''trench' in my plug for a "fire channel",so I'm ascared that I'll push some $#@* in front of my touch hole!

And the embers thing,I had a match lock once and was suprised when the linstock was put on the powder and it took some time to go off. A particle physicist Friend said there is a "Harenberg effect"(?) causing a "wall" of insulation between the heat source and the surface of the powder. What do I know. I fixed furniture for a living.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Steve, you have a very good and interesting point.  We shoot our trail - 50 to 80 shots without wiping, because it's a kind of hunting situation with each target, and wiping just has never been part of the regime.  There has been no need.  I, and Daryl in particular, is very much interested in the best accuracy a muzzle loading rifle can deliver, and you don't start to see any conclusive results until you get out to 50 yards and beyond.
When the snow has gone, and I can get to our bench (probably middle of May) I shall do a test to determine if wiping between shots improves the size of the group at 50 yards.
Please describe your method of wiping, so that I have a head start in that department, never having done so.

[Habu]

not at all, it's going to pick up the very same fouling that your PRB will pick up on the way to be seated.  the trick is-that the PRB combo is tight enough (and the fouling soft enough) to get 99% of it <snip>not counting the "rewipe" of the obturated  ball coming back out (getting that last 1%) when the charge is touched off.  

Um, no.  You can show this by firing a shot, pulling the plug, running a patched ball through the bore, then running patches through the barrel.  (I had to pull the plug to mic the bore anyhow, so figured "why not?"  If you aren't already going to pull the plug, after loading you could run a patch on a tight jag down to the ball. )  A considerable amount of fouling--not "1%"--remains in the bore.  But the issue is not, "removing all the fouling" so much as "having the bore the same from shot to shot." 

Wiping the bore is a separate issue for many: it is done as a safety practice rather than to ease loading.  I'm not aware of anyone who has had powder ignite during loading after wiping the bore (just as I am unaware of anyone who has had powder ignite during loading after blowing down the barrel). 

From an accuracy perspective--if done after every shot, and in a consistent manner--wiping the bore should have little effect but it does introduce another variable.  If load development and practice includes this additional variable, end accuracy should probably be similar.  (I guess I'm saying that an accurate load can be developed using either approach: wiping or not wiping.) 

The load I am currently using in my rifle was developed with a loading practice that includes blowing down the bore after each shot.  If I shift to wiping between shots, at 100 yards the group enlarges slightly and the POI shifts several inches.  At 100 yards, the increase in group size has a negligible effect when shooting offhand (I'm not a good enough offhand shot to notice), but the shift in POI will move me off a 4" circle.

As to Wade's original question, I kinda figure that if I'm aware of the loading practices of a neighboring shooter, I'm not concentrating enough on my own shooting. 

[pathfinder]

As to Wade's original question, I kinda figure that if I'm aware of the loading practices of a neighboring shooter, I'm not concentrating enough on my own shooting. 

I'm alway's watching other guy's loading,as they watch me too. It's a saftey thing for me. But,they WILL NOT tell me if I dry ball though!,not that it ever happen's!

[Bob Roller]

Put a vent pick in the touch hole after each shot and you won't have to worry
about it getting plugged.

Bob Roller

[pathfinder]

Put a vent pick in the touch hole after each shot and you won't have to worry
about it getting plugged.

Bob Roller

One more thing to think about. If I was cocidering wiping between shot's,your advice is spot on. I coned my muzzles to get rid of the short starter! by the way Bob,that lock you built me is awsome. Smooth and sparky!

[SPG]

D. Taylor,

My wiping technique is-

Wet patch (spit) down to breech, leave it set for about ten seconds then withdrawn slowly, no stroking up and down. New wet patch down to breech, withdraw, turn over to clean side, down to breech, withdraw. Dry patch down to breech, both sides. If I'm using one of those basically unreliable cap guns I snap a cap to dry the flash channel as one does not want to have a misfire with the crowd I shoot with. Then load as normal, taking care to not to "ram" the ball onto the powder.

I do think that wiping allows a better, more uniform seating of the ball onto the powder. Sometimes getting it the last few inches with with a fouled bore results in a hard seated ball...not good for consistent shooting.

The wipe/not wipe argument will rage on, no doubt. But I will make this observation...no one who does not wipe between shots has ever won one of our turkey match aggregates. Call me shallow, but when I go to a match, I go to win it. And...this is real heresy...I wipe between shots with my hunting rifles. Since the Blackfeet got the pox there's no need for large volumes of fire.

That last should pour a little gas on the fire...

Steve

[WadePatton]

i missed some stuff, but my point wrt 99% is that

enough fouling is removed (pushed down and subsequently consumed/expelled) such that repeatedloading and firing without wiping is possible, apparently up to 50-80 or more shots.

such that there is no cumulative effect or a very small one.  i care not what the number is--not in the least.  but it has to be pretty good in order for the loading to continue for that many shots with no apparent change in bore condition-as felt by loading.  this is not bench-rest, but is competitive. 

If a wiper (or wipers) started dominating the matches where Taylor and Daryl shoot, then i'd bet the no-wipers would re-examine their practices. 

no wonder the ROW still buys the snake oil

[Dphariss]

Taylor, you miss my gist.  But I appreciate your effort in posting.

Sure, you and I and the rest _here_ know.  I quote those threads just to show that all the details have been hashed out here before-so those who don't know can learn how to leave the wiping behind.

But I bumped into some of the ROW (Rest of World) recently and they have no idea.  NONE at all.  I know we're not trying to keep it a secret.  Just funny how all the other modes of operation persist.  

I just wonder how a wiper would respond if he shot next to a non-wiper who demonstrated a higher rate of accurate fire?

There are none so blind... i reckon.

The non wiper MIGHT shoot better with a water based patch lube. But MY bet is that ON PAPER, a wiped bore will out shoot the unwiped every time. IF the person operating the rifle is UNIFORM in his wiping technique and uses the right patch lube. A great many people shoot low precision matches. Steel plates and such. This is not the same as a rest match shot on paper targets. Shooting steel targets is a lot of fun. But loads that will win a match like this are not in the running in serious paper matchs.

In one of the links the poster was having problems with ballistol/water mix and Swiss. I suspect its the mineral oil in the lube that caused the ring. 3:1 is a VERY heavy oil load in the mix.
I shoot FFF in a 54, 90 gr. And use animal oil or tallow. It does not foul excessively and produces far less problems than 100 gr of FFF Goex did.
My 16 bore with 140 gr of FF Swiss fouls very little indeed. But I shoot this rifle with animal oils too. Its not a target gun.
This is another thing that some do not take into consideration. Hunting is not target shooting. The accuracy requirement and loading process is different.
If I were to use a water lube it would likely be water or a water soap mix.  
I use water and WS oil mix to get the oil in the patches then let the water evaporate.
Its a modified petroleum oil I am sure but since I wipe every shot when using it there is no worry.

No you don't have to wipe every shot. But the guys I shoot against, if you want to do very well, you wipe.
Hunting or shooting at hit or miss steel plates is different than scoring ring targets and is way different than string measure which is the more precise way of scoring. So what the rifle is USED for will be one factor is determining how the rifle is loaded.

One other factor in not wiping and shooting long strings. There have been a number of accidents over the years and some people seriously injured from fouling build up in the breech. The first of these I read of was in the 1960s during the Nationals at Friendship when a pistol shooter shot the rod and ball through his wrist (or hand). Examination of the pistol found heavy fouling in the breech they held enough heat or an ember that lit the charge when rammed.
Its still happening. I don't shoot 50 rounds without wiping the breech out.  I came to that conclusion when I read the account of the pistol shooter shooting himself.

Dan

[WadePatton]

... This is not the same as a rest match shot on paper targets. Shooting steel targets is a lot of fun. But loads that will win a match like this are not in the running in serious paper matchs.

...
Dan

everybody is overcooking my original point.

that most of the whole world of BP shooting does not understand how simple "trails walk" type shooting CAN BE if one chooses to walk around and shoot offhand-competitively or not.

We are not the most of the BP world.  nor are BR shooters.

that is all i has to say.

[Dphariss]

Steve, you have a very good and interesting point.  We shoot our trail - 50 to 80 shots without wiping, because it's a kind of hunting situation with each target, and wiping just has never been part of the regime.  There has been no need.  I, and Daryl in particular, is very much interested in the best accuracy a muzzle loading rifle can deliver, and you don't start to see any conclusive results until you get out to 50 yards and beyond.
When the snow has gone, and I can get to our bench (probably middle of May) I shall do a test to determine if wiping between shots improves the size of the group at 50 yards.
Please describe your method of wiping, so that I have a head start in that department, never having done so.

For reference I wipe with one wet patch, both sides and a dry one both sides. I shoot flint and unless the patches are too wet (or I forget the powder) I never have any ignition problems.
I use one of Tracks Military style worms as a jag in my 50 calibers, it is pretty loose in the bore with a diaper flannel patch.  But the patch bunches up when withdrawn and cleans pretty well.
I wet the patches well ahead of time, at least the night before and take care they are not TOO wet. If I can squeeze much water from them they are too wet.
With WS oil the rifle will shoot through the same hole at 60 yards. But the SHOOTER being able to do this is something else. Starting to think I should have stocked for left hand...
Steve and I both use Swiss which fouls less in most rifles. I do feel some cake shooting 109 gr of FFF in the 50.
My experience has been that any fouling on the lands hurts accuracy.  I found this out when doing 200 yard testing with a 54 some years back. It becomes increasingly noticeable as the range increases.
It may require lube tests to find the one that shoots the best when wiped.
Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy.  Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.

[Hessian]

Even this old dog can learn new tricks!

Interesting discussion.

Hessian

[WadePatton]

I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy.  Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.

certainly as well.  any learnin' is good learnin'. i know i learned some. i hope plenty others did to.  no secrets.  live and share.   

[Roger Fisher]

I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy.  Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.

Ok young fella do you 'really' need better accuracy than you already have ?.  I have a hunch you are simply nicely signing off the subject...