An Odd little Smoothbore for your review

[MarkEngraver]

  This little gun belonged to my Uncle. He was an Artist and he won this little gun as a prize for "Best of Show"  at the Hellena, MT. "Northwest Rendezvous Art Show" back in the middle 80's.
  I was finally able to get some pictures of the gun to post for the forums review. Any info would be appreciated.

Particulars are:
Lock ------ " R &W.C. Biddle & Co., Philadelphia"
Barrel ----- 24 3/8 " long - swamped, breech = 1 1/8", muzzle = 1 1/32", waist of barrel =15/16"+ (a shade over) There is a dovetailed repair ?, on the right side towards the muzzle
Caliber ---- ?,  muzzle is coned/funneled, measures .715" at muzzle, bore seems to be .58 or so range ? and it is a SMOOTH BORE.
Pull ---- 12 1/2" 
Drop ---- 4 3/4 ( from sight line)
Butt plate 4" tall














You can see the barrel "repair"? Not sure what's going on here!




Ran rod tip is pewter ... buggered up with pliers marks !


The business end !
An interesting little gun ... kind of sized for a kid ... or kind of a Buggy gun ! Reminds me of a flintlock version of a SxS Coach gun.
Your thoughts are welcomed !

Mark

[TMerkley]

Just a thought,  My opinion is that it was a longrifle that had a worn or damaged barrel and was shortened instead of throwing it all away. It probably had worn out bore and was reamed to a smoothbore.  Also when this was done, it was probably rebreeched due to corrosion etc...  In doing so they probably did not get the plug on to the right flat, rotated the barrel and decided to fill the dove tail where a ramrod thimble was once located or a barrel lug. 
Or, the barrel came from a different rifle. 

Maybe someone out there may have some factual information on it. 

[Lucky R A]

    It almost looks like a conglomeration of antique parts assembled into a working gun during the mid seventies.  All the architecture seems pretty darn crude for any self respecting gunsmith of old to have built as first work.  A look inside the lock mortise and the barrel inlet should tell the story.  Mr. Merkley is dead on about the barrel.

[Hungry Horse]

 This looks like what we refer to out here on the left coast, as a blacksmiths gun. Blacksmiths back in the day, were the logical place to try to sell, or trade, the metal parts left over when a horse fell on a gun, or a gun fell off a horse. Every blacksmith had a bunch of barrels, and cans of parts, squirreled away somewhere, waiting for the day he would stock up his free rifle. Usually these guns follow a similar theme. The barrel is usually a short, massive, target barrel. The lock most often is a Goulcher, or something similar. And, for some unknown reason, the furniture seems to often come from a light squirrel rifle. This makes up into a gun that is not only unpleasing to the eye, but nearly impossible to shoot. They're survival rate is very good, since they rarely, if ever, get used.

                  Hungry Horse

[Majorjoel]

I think you fella's are giving this lil "under the coat" scatter gun a great dis-service. For what it is I think it was made of what the gun stocker had at hand maybe as far back as the late flintlock early percussion era. This time period is actually several years spanning a 20-25 yr period. It looks PA\Ohioish to me and I kind of like it's profile. The short swamped barrel is interesting and sure looks uncut. Purpose for highwaymen or under a blanket in the back of a buggy....?

[MarkEngraver]

Unfortunately, I did not have the freedom to disassemble the gun to check the "hidden" things out, I'm with you Majorjoel, My feeling is that this little gun is "purpose" built.

I do not think the barrel is a cut down long barrel, it is a "miniature" version of a longer barrel squeezed into the shorter profile, almost like a Colerain Edward Marshal profile reduced in length. 
the waist of the barrel is 7" to 8" from the muzzle.

One thing I forgot to say is the barrel lugs seem to be "double pinned", the pins are about 3/4" apart .... in the pic of the muzzle side behind the cap you can see this, it is as if the barrel lugs are long to accommodate 2 pins ! It makes me wonder if the barrel "repair" wasn't a mistake where the gun maker started filing on the wrong flat! for the lugs. The length of the "repair" is about right for the "double pinning" !? But, as I said I didn't get to remove the barrel so I'm speculating.

The gun seems to have seen a good amount of use, the erosion at the touch hole looks "right"! Handling the gun it just feels like the thing was used ... a lot !
Why would you "cone" a smooth bore if you where going to use Shot ... unless you wanted the pattern to spread for close quarters ? Coning is usually for loading round ball, the sights say "round ball"? .... I don't know ... the gun seems such an anomaly ?

That's why I was interested in your thoughts.

Mark

[mr. no gold]

The insert in the side of the barrel is most likely the barrel makers effort to strengthen what he perceived as a weak place in a handmade barrel. I have seen two rifles with the same repair: one was a 1790s Albright, Lancaster rifle and the second was a J. Bonawitz smooth gun. The Albright had initials on the insert, perhaps to warrant the repair as good, by the barrel maker.
Your gun looks correct and seems to be a Berks Co. PA piece. It may have been cut down, but I have seen similar short guns. One was no longer than 36 inches overall, if that long and it was 100%.
Thank you for displaying it here.
Dick

[boman]

Purpose for highwaymen or under a blanket in the back of a buggy....?
   

 I'm thinkin a "coach gun" if in fact it was made with a purpose which it appears to be.  coach guns were not uncommon in Europe.

 Steve

[TMerkley]

The more I look at it, I'm thinking coach-gun.

[Dphariss]

Short rifles were known the Germans made more of these than long ones it would seem.  It is very unlikely this barrel was originally a SB. The British were making swamped barreled rifles of similar length till the end of MLs it would seem.
The person that stocked it, be it 1970 or 1830 had little skill as a stock maker. It is without a doubt a parts gun IMO. But many old guns are. The dovetail could easily be a repair of a flaw that disfigured the octagonal flat or repair of damage. It is not well done in any case.
The barrel surely predates the lock and could date to the American Revolution for all we know.
Assuming any old gun is in its original state is a mistake until proven otherwise.
With the buttstock design/comb line this stock has it would not be fun to shoot with that bore size.

Dan

[Avlrc]

The profile & side plate looks like a Hampshire County WV Gun to me. Never  seen a HCR  muzzle like that though! Well not that obvious.

[Dave B]

The coach gun idea has merit. I suspect that the patch is for the portion that once held the bayonet mounting some coach pieces had IMOP.

[Mike Brooks]

The barrel may be from an old hessian gun. I had one through here that had a brazed repair in that spot from the removal of the bayo lug.

[Dphariss]

Small bore, rifle stocked, rifle sighted coach gun? Anything is possible. But I think its a parts gun.  
I had thought about the dovetail being a place for a bayonet, except that dovetail would bot hold a bayonet mount unless brazed on.
Some German military rifles had them though.
Dan

[MarkEngraver]

Thanks for the input.
No argument here on it being a "parts gun", Dan !

Bayonet lug ! now that's one that didn't cross my mind.

I did do a search on the R &WC Biddle, Philidelphia on the lock, Apparently it was an importation company that dealt in foreign and domestic hardware.
Found a couple percussion guns with the same name but not much more info in the way of guns.

I find it fascinating what this maker did with a box of parts and an idea ! So much of the time I think we get all hung up with staying within a particular "school" ... "this is right!" , but " that's not correct" and so on, and then something like this little gun shows up and screws with the paradigm !

The old gunmaker I did some work with use to take 8mm Mauser barrels, bore them up to 9mm, mount them to a Luger pistol and make a long barreled, shoulder stocked Luger "rifle" with fancy English wood and engraving ! He did 3 to 4 of these that I know of, and had requests to do a couple more before he died.
Gunmakers do what gunmakers do !

Mark

[Majorjoel]

I agree with you Mark, the old timer that took me under his wing used to turn many random parts into wonderous shooting creations! Parts that to a guy off the street would look like junk for sure. I will never forget the time he taught me about making nose caps from pewter. I was going to order some from Track of the Wolf when he said nonsense.....look in that old cupboard. Inside there were stacks of pewter cups, mugs, plates, special engraved "trophy" urns, and candle holders. We just melted them down and used them for muzzle caps. Before he died he gave me a sack full of this stuff. My sister is an antique dabler and checked out a few of these articles and found most all were worth a few hundred  $$'s more than just raw pewter!