Lock finish on "black rifles"

[Mark Elliott]

I am very seriously considering an "as new" finish on my next iron mounted rifle.     It is my chunk gun, so I don't have to worry about pleasing anyone but myself.   I just want to make something that would be finished as close to original as possible.   An aged finish is really just a cheat because I/we are not sure what it was originally.   I know that there is evidence that the barrel and mounts on these rifles where charcoal blued, but what about the lock?   Would you charcoal blue the plate and cock; color case harden it; or leave it bright.    I am looking for opinions and evidence as to original finish.   

[Dennis Glazener]

Mark,
I have seen far more browned original iron mounted rifles than anything else. I have never seen one with a case hardened lock.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Dennis,

The lock on that rifle of yours I photographed, looked to me to be case hardened.   Obviously,  I didn't test it, but it did have a mottled appearance that reminded me of case hardening.   I guess it could have just be finished bright.   Do you think it was?

Mark

[Don Stith]

I bet if you ran a hardness test on most any of the old plates you would find they had been hardened for wear resistance and then left the mottled finish that was the result of the simple case hardening.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

If I were leaving the barrel and all else bright i would do so with the lock.. Otherwise I would treat it the same as I do the rest....... why not??

[Jim Kibler]

I bet if you ran a hardness test on most any of the old plates you would find they had been hardened for wear resistance and then left the mottled finish that was the result of the simple case hardening.

Some or perhaps most of the plates were casehardened, though with later period cheap export quality locks commonly used on mountain rifles, it becomes less certain.  To me given the lack of available evidence, it's pure speculation to draw any conclusions as to an "as case hardend" surface being left prior to being sold or used.  People don't always like to accept it today, but in the period, "shine" had value.  So to my first point, it's hard to draw any conclusions.

[bgf]

I always think the locks look a little different from the rest of the furniture, so maybe sometimes they were hardened and polished and either had no color or very little which rubbed off quickly.  I doubt the "black rifles" kept them bright, though!  Something like a "french grey", maybe from results of pickling is my best guess!  Cant wait to see what you come up with.

[Dennis Glazener]

Obviously,  I didn't test it, but it did have a mottled appearance that reminded me of case hardening.   I guess it could have just be finished bright.   Do you think it was?

I suspect that it was left to age naturally but maybe it was polished, might even have been case hardened but I don't believe so.

I believe most of those old mountain rifles had English export locks and were used as they were when they got them. If they were case hardened I suspect it was done by the makers, but I have no way of proving it.
Dennis

[keweenaw]

Mark,

You probably don't want to do a charcoal blue on a chunk gun barrel.  By the time chunk gunning became popular I would suspect that most of the finishes were browned.    While I love charcoal blued barrels and have done a number of them for myself and others the charcoal bluing does slightly scale the bore even if you pack it full of rice grain size charcoal and plug the muzzle with a piece of charcoal.  Takes a moderate amount of shooting before that all clears and since the object of a chunk gun is to have a perfect bore.......

Personally I love color cased locks and since a chunk gun gets shot a lot the hardening is good for wear resistance and should slightly improve lock time.  But not everyone, agrees as Jim Kibler says.   In any event case harden the lock and take the color off if you want it bright or be like me and just leave the color on! 

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

'shine has value.

Indeedie it does, it took labor to get the shine, it's worth something, brother.

For your own purposes, the case sure speeds up a lock. Friction b gone to a large degree. If you don't like the colors polish them off, or etch them off with some naval jelly.

[LRB]

  If it's English and FL, Your best bet is it was case hardened. Not necessarily colored, but cased.

[Jim Kibler]

To be blunt, as junky as some of the late period English export locks were, I wouldn't be suprised if some were not cased at all.

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks for all the input.  I will mull it all over. 

[heinz]

Mark, since you stated an "iron on mounted mountain rifle" I would concur with Dennis that the best evidence, guess work and gut feelings aside, is most of them were browned, especially after 1800.  Charles Sawyer in one of the early histories of American Rifles, states the mountain gunsmiths used a sal ammoniac browned finish.  Angier sites that reference and I looked it up once, Sawyer wrote i t in the late 19th century.  Hacker Martin was also a firm believer in rust browned barrels on iron mounted guns.  The lock is anybody's guess.  I usually brown mine on the exterior, because you can't really heat blue it and I don't care for case hardening.  I boil the locks however so they come up almost black.   The iron mounted rifle I posted a couple of months back has that finish approach.

My original Jaeger has a rust blued lock and the barrel is hard to tell, maybe charcoal maybe rust blue.

[Don Getz]

We're talking about an iron mounted southern gun.   It is going to be a target rifle.   You will spend a lot of time laying
on the ground,  when the sun is shining.  I would brown the parts.   As for the lock, case hardening the lock plate would
make it a better lock, you could then brown the other parts.  I just don't think a silver, shiny barrel and furniture would
make for a good target gun..........Don

[Dphariss]

To be blunt, as junky as some of the late period English export locks were, I wouldn't be suprised if some were not cased at all.

Not even the internal "wear" parts.
Some of this stuff was really bad.
This was why in the 1830s the American Fur Company wrote Henry specifying they take great care in selecting the locks for their rifles.
W. Greener wrote  in the 1830s of being able to buy locks for 1/2 crown a BUSHEL.

Dan

[Mark Elliott]

Actually, I never said it was a mountain rifle.   It is a chunk gun in the style of Rockbridge County, Va around 1800 (think John Davidson with a big barrel) , and it just happens to be iron mounted.    If I made it in brass and blackened it, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.    In this case, chunk gun is how I am going to use it, it is not its style.   

Don made a good point about not wanting it to reflect light.    That leaves me back at blue or brown.   I am thinking browned at this point.

[bgf]

Mark,
That's what I thought you meant by "black rifle", and I was excited to hear it (working on something a little similar and yet quite a bit different myself).  From some accounts, they were originally covered with dark finish completely, including the hardware?  I suppose this was over charcoal bluing which many seem to share, or browning?  I should have added earlier that I have seen some later, fancier locks blued, but not sure how (rust?), mainly I'm thinking about the most recently-found brass mounted Jacob Young; the black color looks really nice with the gold inlay !

A coarser rust blue would be good to reduce glare, or a black finish over browning would also be nice, if they really did things that way.

[heinz]

I apologize for slipping "mountain" into that quote, my error.  But with the Blue Ridge on the eastern boundary and the Allegheny on the western boundary Rockbridge county would probably qualify as mountains :-)   

[Dphariss]

Actually, I never said it was a mountain rifle.   It is a chunk gun in the style of Rockbridge County, Va around 1800 (think John Davidson with a big barrel) , and it just happens to be iron mounted.    If I made it in brass and blackened it, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.    In this case, chunk gun is how I am going to use it, it is not its style.   

Don made a good point about not wanting it to reflect light.    That leaves me back at blue or brown.   I am thinking browned at this point.

If you intend to USE the rifle have the plate and cock professionally case hardened. It will extend the life greatly. At the least harden it around the tumbler hole but this will likely be pretty shallow case. It can be browned afterwards if that is important. If you are afraid it will be too shiney only polish to a sharp 220 grit.
I shoot matches every month and the difference in reflection between white and a properly done brown or rust blue is negligible. If the sun reflects off a rust blued barrel into the eye you can't see anything more than if it were white with a 220-320 finish (was trying to shoot down hill at a critter into a setting sun left in disgust). Now if rusted to the point that the barrel has a surface finish like a gravel road that might help. I don't work to that standard so I am not likely to find out.
At any rate its very rare to shoot in a situation that would cause reflection to be an issue.

Dan

[Mark Elliott]

But with the Blue Ridge on the eastern boundary and the Allegheny on the western boundary Rockbridge county would probably qualify as mountains :-)   

Good point, but by that standard, almost all longrifles are mountain rifles.