Pistol questions

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I'm really getting interested in building a pistol for myself. I have some ugly questions that keep coming up.

1. Does a rifled barrel make a difference with a pistol? At pistol ranges wouldn't a tight patched round ball be as accurate as a rifled barrel?

2. I like the look of brass barrel pistols. Do they come rifled or only smooth?

3. If I can find a brass barrel, can a Stainless Steel touchhole liner be used? Would the different metal of the liner cause an electrolytic corrosion problem? Or does the barrel need a direct drill TH?

4. Where can I go for a pistol barrel? a. Brass? b. Steel?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Habu]

I'm surprised no one has answered, but you've got some interesting questions there . . . .

What is "pistol range" to you?  If it is contact distance? dueling range? casual plinking?  formal competition at 25 yards and beyond?  How serious are you about shooting it--are you going to practice enough to get the best results you can from it, or shoot it a few times a year?  Is this a hunting pistol?  

The answers to questions like that are going to give a much better idea of what to look for in a pistol barrel.  If you are just going to shoot it casually, once-in-a-while, there's no reason not to get a smoothbore.  If you want to shoot in smoothbore matches, well, then you'd need a smoothbore.  But to hunt, to shoot formal competition, or just to have a chance to outshoot your buddies popping cans off a fence post, you'll probably want a rifled barrel.  

Generally, you want a fast-twist for target shooting (with the idea being using lighter loads to cut down on shooter fatigue), slow-twists for hunting (so you can get good accuracy with heavier hunting loads).  There are exceptions to both, of course.  

I've seen rifled brass pistol barrels, but I'm not sure of availability.  Best bet would be to check with the various barrel makers.  

I'm not sure about the use of stainless touch hole liners in a brass barrel; check with the barrel makers you talk with.  I'd probably check first with Charles Burton or Ed Rayl, but only because their contact info comes up first on a forum search here!

Good luck,
Jim

[tyro]

 Micah,
   I'm not sure if this will help, but a smooth bore shotgun I have prints cloverleaf groups at 50 yards with Forster type slugs. The ballistics are similar to a 65 cal muzzle loader. Its the only smooth bore I've ever shot with real sights, and I was very surprised at the accuracy it gave. Hope that helps a little.
 This is an interesting topic that would be worth checking out. If U build a smooth bore it could always be rifled later if it were not satisfactory. U could then measure your groups to see how much better it was rifled than smooth bore. I know I would be interested in that, but then I really did want to know how the clock worked...not really what time it was. TY
   

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Bronze pistol barrels are not very difficult to make, if you are not adverse to some filing.

A bronze barreled American style pistol, bronze swamped octagon barrel, 0.469 caliber, 7 groove 1-56 twist.


Bronze barreled English pistols, bronze tapered octagon to round barrel, 0.626 caliber, smooth


Jim

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't plan of doing any hunting with this pistol. Mainly I guess it'd be for casual shooting and for pistol match shooting at my club. Charges around 20 gr. at 25 yards. As far as my club shooting. I'm by far not the best shot,  I shoot for the camaraderie of the sport. I'd like to keep the barrel around 9-10" rifled or smooth is not important, I think, but I really like the look of Brass. So that's what I will be doing with it.

[Chris Treichel]

I suppose it would be a heck of a lot smaller operation to rifle a 10-14 inch pistol barrel than a 44 inch rifle barrel... not easier and I'm sure it would have all kinds of issues... Meaning to say that I could fit a rifling jig thats for a 14 inch barrel in my  kitchen... one for a 44 inch barrel would not....

Speaking of brass barrels... where would you get one? I know track has had one on their page... but where would you go to get one made?  Drill one out of brass stock?   I have one that was given to me by a friend who's father had made it (TerHaar)... Looks to have been made out of a brass tube with thick stock.

[Dan'l 1946]

 Either Charles Burton or Ed Rayl can answer all your questions--and then build you a safe and very high quality barrel.
                                             Dan

[David R. Pennington]

I think TOW had some original bronze pistol barrels that had turned up in some old warehouse a while back for sale but wouldn't fit my budget at the time. Pistol project is on my list too. Keep us updated how yours goes.

[Dphariss]

As in a long arm rifling is only important if you want accuracy.
The proper bronze is safe for gun barrels but I have trust issues with anything but a couple of alloy steels. Brass is for ornaments only.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunmetal will give some imformation. From what I read a few years back the gov't was pretty particular about the Bronze alloy they made guns from IIRC.
I have no desire to own or shoot a copper alloy gun barrel. While you are of course free to do as you like I see "brass" barrels as for looking at and steel barrels for using. Bronze is pretty expensive right now as well.
Check Log Cabin Shop they usually have Rayl barrels listed. These are, SFAIK made of better steel.
Rayl makes barrel from copper alloy but I do not know what he uses.

Dan

[tyro]

Micah,
  As usual, I agree with Dpharis"s comments completely.
    Another route U might take would be to obtain one of Brownell's steel barrel liners for 44 40 to sleeve with a copper alloy tube. U could then find,or fabricate, an alloy tube of proper color and of a size that would allow U to shape it to your pleasure. U would end up with the ascetics U desire,accuracy that will be more satisfying, and the safety that is a must, and quite a story to tell when it's finished. Best of all worlds! Good luck on your build TY
PS I enjoy seeing the work in progress photos, and they give me ideas too..hope to see yours soon..TY

[James Wilson Everett]

guys,

If you want to try putting a rifled liner in a pistol barrel. 

T.J.'s  3652 Neltner Road, Alexandria, KY 41001, (859) 635-5560, Mike Sayers, President.  These guys make a large selection of hammer forged liners for modern calibers from 0.17 to 0.50, about 40 different ones.  For muzzle loaders they make a 0.460 bore/0.476 groove, 1-48, 5/8 OD and a 0.510 bore/0.532 groove, 1-48, 11/16 OD.  I used the 0.510 liner and was very pleased with the result.  T.J.'s sells these for $3.75 per inch.  I believe that Track of the Wolf sells these also, but at a higher price.  Obviously the price of the liner will exceed the price of a new barrel, so it only makes sense to line only the most valuable barrels.

If you want to try putting a smooth liner in a pistol barrel.

Use available tubing, maybe even stainless steel!

Jim

[Rasch Chronicles]

Dan,

Why the objection to Brass/Bronze? I frequent the European Auction sites frequently (When I have access on the net, like today!) to collect pictures for my library of BP firearms, and I see numerous examples of Naval pieces in Brass or Bronze. There are also several examples that I recall of "Queen Anne" style pistols with brass barrels along with regular flintlocks. Now I admit that this does not preclude that all the other ones ever made didn't blow up in their users faces, but I would think we might have heard more about it.

I looked up the composition of traditional gunmetal, and it is 88% Copper 10% Tin, and 2% Zinc. That's "Copper Alloy No. C90500" Available at : http://www.anchorbronze.com/c90500.htm There's even a Manganese Bronze whose tensile strength specifications exceed that of gunmetal by a factor of two. Of course, 4140 doubles that depending on heat treatment.

Just food for thought and ideas.

I have to figure out how to insert pictures again. It's been so long, that I can't recall how it's done...

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Range Reviews: Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn

[Dphariss]

Dan,

Why the objection to Brass/Bronze? I frequent the European Auction sites frequently (When I have access on the net, like today!) to collect pictures for my library of BP firearms, and I see numerous examples of Naval pieces in Brass or Bronze. There are also several examples that I recall of "Queen Anne" style pistols with brass barrels along with regular flintlocks. Now I admit that this does not preclude that all the other ones ever made didn't blow up in their users faces, but I would think we might have heard more about it.

I looked up the composition of traditional gunmetal, and it is 88% Copper 10% Tin, and 2% Zinc. That's "Copper Alloy No. C90500" Available at : http://www.anchorbronze.com/c90500.htm There's even a Manganese Bronze whose tensile strength specifications exceed that of gunmetal by a factor of two. Of course, 4140 doubles that depending on heat treatment.

Just food for thought and ideas.

I have to figure out how to insert pictures again. It's been so long, that I can't recall how it's done...

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Range Reviews: Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn

Brass work hardens and its REALLY a bad idea for a gun barrel. Bronze was widely used for smaller cannon until the Civil War +-.

Just like steel you need to know the alloy of the material and the quality. When people start discussing making barrels from this or that material and saying they used worse materials in the past I always think of the medical journal article that was reprinted in "The Buckskin Report" of a doctor circa 1840 removing an entire breech plug from a patients eye socket. It had entered at the corner of the eye some 2 years or so previous and the patient finally looked up a physician due to headaches he had suffered since a rifle he was shooting had burst. Not only did the man survive the eye survived removal of the plug as well.
I just see no reason for using anything other than a good steel barrel for a gun barrel. I don't HAVE to use bronze or low quality steel or old wagon tire grade iron so I don't use it. Why would I? I shoot everything I make. Its MY head next to the breech.
Bronze field pieces the Civil War were the only guns without a failure rate, I have read. But this was thought at the time to be the thermal characteristics of the material rather than its ultimate strength. This from a volume on the "Conduct of the War" published by Congress after the War.
So technically the proper Bronze alloy is OK I guess.
When we start thinking of the past we need to understand that failures were common. By the 1860s this was greatly improved as technology improved. But there were still failures. In general these were MATERIAL QUALITY issues. For example I believe nearly 50% of original Colt Walker revolvers failed in service, burst barrels or cylinders. This is why the later Dragoon models had shorter cylinders.
The modern repros made in Italy with gun barrel steel barrels and cylinders are safe with BP. Probably would stand smokeless if it was ignited properly but I would never try it except by shooting the revolver with a LONG string on the trigger from behind a wall or from in a fox hole.
Now does this mean that iron is too weak for BP arms? No it means the iron used was so riddled with inclusions that it was not able to contain the pressures generated. The Civil War US Muskets were ALL skelp welded "best" iron and they STILL have a good safety record. Though shooting one regularly is silly IMO.
Since I have no idea what the quality rating is of a bar of Bronze  bought from some supplier is I don't know if its safe to shoot. I suspect there are different levels of quality in copper alloys too since the are used in applications like power plants and perhaps nuclear submarines.
The thing is that BP produces such low pressure compared to the strength of the material that it should be impossible to burst a steel barrel EVEN WITH A BARREL OBSTRUCTION. Yet barrels fail. So this tells us that the material is at fault. I cannot in good conscience have someone make a barrel from questionable material without at LEAST pointing out that it might not be safe.
BTW if the material is not suitable for the application no proof load or other "test" will assure it will not fail in use.
If people choose to make Bronze barrels or barrels from PVC pipe its THEIR affair. But they need to be able to make INFORMED decisions.

BTW the TENSILE numbers  of a material does not necessarily translate into its ability to contain pressure.
Dan

[FL-Flintlock]

The thing is that BP produces such low pressure compared to the strength of the material that it should be impossible to burst a steel barrel EVEN WITH A BARREL OBSTRUCTION.
Dan

This is the kind of nonsense statement that ends up getting people hurt!

Any barrel that is improperly loaded can, and probably will, fail no matter what propellent is being used.  Black powder itself can develop pressures in excess of 100ksi and when a bore obstruction is involved even the best of the best modern steel alloys cannot withstand the massive pressure spike that is not even related to the type of propellent being used. 

[FL-Flintlock]

There are two general types of Cu alloys that are hardened through heat treatment: those annealed by high-temp quenching & hardened by lower-temp processing, and those that are subjected to martensitic type reactions via quench from high temp.  There's also low/intermediate temp processes resulting in hardening like precipitation & spinodal as well as age-hardening.  Careful attention must be placed on the "exact" alloy being used because even seemingly insignificant amounts of alloying can have profound affects on the properties of the finished product.  Cu alloys with an Al content age-harden at room temperature resulting in significant changes in strength, hardness & ductility.  Alloys that have a spinodal structure generated by high-temp solution treatment & quench have excellent cold-working properties but while being highly ductile they often lack desired hardness and/or strength in the finished product.  Those alloys that are precipitation hardened at the mill will often require post-fabrication stress relief although particular attention must be given to those Cu alloys that are susceptible to quench-fracturing.  Remember also that all brass alloys are highly susceptible to ammonia & corrosion stress cracking and dezincification failure.  Thus, one would be wise to give careful attention to every little detail.

[Rasch Chronicles]

Dan and FL,

As always, thanks for the great answers. That's why all this is so much fun!

Best regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles: Best Boar Hunting Calibers

[DaveP (UK)]

Two penn'orth from a newbie...
I have been quite surprised by this thread. Is there really nothing known about the non ferrous alloys that were used to make guns in the i9th century? Quite a lot of these would have been made for government contracts, which would, I imagine, specify the alloy quite closely.
I realise there can be differences between specifications and delivered goods, but surely it would be a starting point?


And if the OP fancies something a little diferent, how about this?

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ORIGINAL_DAMASCUS_BARRELS.html

Expensive chap, but reputable.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

A very important consideration in selecting a material for making a gun barrel is certainly the yield and ultimate strength of the material.  But another consideration of equal, or even greater, importance is the ductility of the material.  I common terms, when a material is stressed, how much will it elongate before it fails?  A material with high strength, but low ductility, may not be a good choice for a gun barrel.  Whereas, a material with moderate strength, but good ductility, may be a better choice.

So, if we wish to make a barrel out of bronze, or any other material, we should know the ductility and select a material accordingly.  I have seen barrel and frame failures in guns that appear to be brittle in nature, that is with little evidence of significant material deformation prior to failure (think like that china plate you dropped on the kitchen floor).  Certainly this type of failure is due to a low ductility material that is susceptable to failure by shock loading.

For instance, bearing bronze alloy 932 and gun metal alloy 905 have very similar yield stress strength levels, but the bearing bronze has an elongation at failure of 10% (not very ductile) while the gun metal is 25% (much better ductility).  Which would you select?

Just as an aside:  Wrought iron has an elongation at failure of 25%, steel alloy 12L14 is only 10%.  Makes one wonder???

Jim

[Bob Roller]

12L14 has NEVER been certified gun barrel material nor have any
of the variants like Ledloy or Tellurium leaded (whatever THAT is).
The only question any litigants lawyer has to ask is the one that
goes like this "Does any steel mill or purveyor of steel products
certify this specific material for use in gun barrels". Party is over
and the ice cream just turned to $#@*.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

The concern that with wrought iron should be with the fact that by it's very nature it contains large numbers of inclusions.  If these reach a certain size or perhaps concentration, they can be seen as a defect.  An inclusion of sufficient size has very little mechanical strength and can be basically viewed as a crack.  Anyone around much wrought iron has seen these large inclusions.  They aren't uncommon.  To further agrevate the problem, the orientation of the inclusions in a wrought iron barrel are generally in the worst possible configuration given the stresses a barrel is exposed to.  With all this said, wrought iron of sufficient quality has certainly been proven to be adequate for a longrifle barrel.  Any figure stating the elongation of wrought iron should be taken with a grain of salt.  First the figure of 25% referenced is most likely obtained from a sample where the stress was orientated parallel with the inclusions.  Testing perpendicular to the inclusions or grain direction would likely produce a result vastly lower.  Also wrought iron is so variable in composition and structure, it becomes problematic to extrapolate one set of test results to other material.