what to build???

[rogero]

as i am new to all this, i was wondering if anybody would recomend as far as style and wheather or not i should start with a kit or should i start with a hunk o wood and a barrel and hope for the best.
i like the jacob dickert style and the isaac haines as well , but the few people i have spoken to said to stay away from those as i would "be disappionted" but they would not elaborate as to why,  and these people also said to stay away from swamped barrels is there something i should know about?
or is this some sort of secret that i have to figure out after i spend what little money my wife will let me have ?

any input would be great
regards
Roger

[ChipK]

Pick up a Chambers Issac Haynes kit since you like that style.  Their kits are one of the best and there is lots of assistance here ot help you get it together.  Hooking up with another builder in your area will help to get you through the panic attacks when things become complicated. 

Their video on putting a kit together is a good investment as well for the first time builder.

[Dphariss]

Contact Chambers and ask which would be best for a beginner. I would not sweat the swamped barrel too much. The chambers kit will require some chisels and such for the wood work.
Most or all of the difficult stuff is done, dovetails etc on these and you end up with a nice gun.

Unlike the economy kits which are worth little or no more finished than as a kit in most cases.

Dan

[Dave B]

Looking back on my first gun I would have been money a head to just save up alittle more money and buy a first class kit. Chambers is one of the best. However I have put several of the Track of the Wolf kits together and had no problems either. It is important to get the best you can afford and ask lots of questions. The books that are available are a god send to the first time builder but you cant beat having some one show you how to do something. That is where the videos are very helpful. If there is a builder near you that is even better. I would agree with the advise of Chip and Dan on this one.
Good luck with your quest.

[rogero]

are the haines or dickerts more dificult to build or something? I will check out the chambers kits for sure thanks for the input, and wich videos do you recommend?

[altankhan]

you might ask yourself what you will use if for? hunting, re-enacting, period rendezvous portrayal?  all or some of above ?--  a properly  engraved, carved penn. style rifle is going to be much harder to pull off than a plainer rifle.  peterw did a nice job on a tenn. style rifle in his posting "first build".  so, I would find pictures or originals (museums, etc.) of plainer, simpler "working" guns and try to find a quality kit close to those lines.  unless you are really skilled you will probably make some mistakes on yr first one(s) and yr result may not be worth much more than the parts -- but still be a serviceable gun (and you need quality parts just to achieve that).  just my opinion. (with a good lock, barrel, and lock bolts you can fashion a nice "poorboy" hunting gun from a piece of stock wood, and make the trigger guard, ramrod pipes, etc. yrself -- much like H. House did in volume 5 of the Foxfire book)

[Acer Saccharum]

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be a barrel inlet into a piece of wood, and the buttstock pre-carved.

I don't like pre-inlet locks, or sideplates, or any of that kind of thing. I find I have to fight to get the parts to fit the inlet, or to get the location I want. Instead of saving time, it takes more time just to try to get it to come out right.

I like swamped barrels for balance and looks.

Ever get to Dixon's Fair? or thr CLA show? It's great to see some of the choices in person, and to get to talk with the suppliers and builders in person.

Tom

[northmn]

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be a barrel inlet into a piece of wood, and the buttstock pre-carved.

I don't like pre-inlet locks, or sideplates, or any of that kind of thing. I find I have to fight to get the parts to fit the inlet, or to get the location I want. Instead of saving time, it takes more time just to try to get it to come out right.

I like swamped barrels for balance and looks.

Ever get to Dixon's Fair? or thr CLA show? It's great to see some of the choices in person, and to get to talk with the suppliers and builders in person.

Tom

I do not like kits for the same reasons either and agree with the comments.  However, for one that is building one of his firsts the kits are a good way to go.  They force proportions such as the web between the barrel and ramrod, and permit the first gun to be a little nicer and have more value.  Some of the things mentioned take a while for a beginner to see and understand until the wood shavings have hit the floor on a few guns.   I still see that on this web even with advice.

DP

[rogero]

Well, I have looked at the chambers kits and they are indeed quite nice. i  suspect I will most likely go that
way for the simple fact when my wife asks "how much?" I can just show her on the screen "That much"
There is no way ill let her know about the incidentals though! (stains,finishes sand papeers ect)
i think that would put the poor woman over the edge!
BUt I like the Idea of getting the barrel pre inlet into the stock and taking it from there...But  not just yet.
do you gentlemen have any sugestions as to what brand of chisels and gouges i should be looking into?? or should i start hunting around antique shops?

[Roger Fisher]

Well now, its a happy road your starting down.  The road has some bumps; but you are starting right by asking which fork to take from folks that have been there.

Get the books Chuck Dixon's walks you thru it step by step and Pete Alexander's Gunsmith of Grenville County gets in to more detail (but jumps around off the track at times). 

Suggest stay with a plain rifle at first.  Stay away from having everything preinlet. That gets you in to more trouble than doing it yourself.  Swamped rifles are sweet but for an offhand shooter a straight barrel gives you the 'weight' and hangs on a string better.  (IMHO only)

Happy Trails! 

(Don't work late, don't rush, break the process down in to small jobs, stand back and look at her at times and angles, And by God don't have your soul mate "help"

[rogero]

its a lot to take in ! I do have the gunsmith of grenville county( a great book too)  also a few tools as well
but not many  but i suspect this will come in time.
does any of this whole process require a oxy acetylene torch?or can i get away with a brazing torch?

[Roger Fisher]

its a lot to take in ! I do have the gunsmith of grenville county( a great book too)  also a few tools as well
but not many  but i suspect this will come in time.
does any of this whole process require a oxy acetylene torch?or can i get away with a brazing torch?

No and Yes.    Actually you shouldn't need a torch except for striping a r rod or soldering lugs on a round barrel if thats what your using!! Small torch can be used to heat the Aqua Fortis!

[J.D.]

 And by God don't have your soul mate "help"

Very sage advice, old wise one.

Chuck Edwards lovely wife was in his shop, a coupla years ago, admiring his handiwork. She picked up a nearly completed full stock and held it up to the light with the tip of the fore stock pointing at the ceiling. She hadn't noticed that the recently installed ceiling fan was going at full tilt.  The carnage that ensued as the forearm invaded the space of the twirling fan blades was legend. Maple shrapnel rained down, disgorged from the spinning blades, much as the contents of an uncapped food processor are dispersed, willy-nilly, covering the entire room with the wreckage of a once pristine work of art. In that instant, the nearly completed full stock became a nearly completed half stock.  Eva was very sorry. Chuck was very....shocked, to say the least, to see the results of his hard work dispersed throughout the shop, like feathers from a panicked hen. Eva is, consequently,  no longer allowed in Chuck's shop. 

[rogero]

jd; sage advice!! i think that i may be fortunate as my wife dont care about my new found passion, just what it costs! and why i need such a piece .... and the most important ... why do i have to spend the money on a chunck of wood a piece of pipe when she could spend it ALL on quilting!!!!

[rogero]

newbie question!!  aqua fortis???

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Aqua Fortis is a solution usually made from Nitric Acid and Iron. It seems to have been widely used as a stain for rifles in the 18th century.  Many here use it as it is historically correct ..and we like the color.  It is put on and then heated to getthe color.  If you choose to use it you can , and should get lots of advice here.

An easy way to produce the effect is to dilute Ferric Nitrate Crystals in distilled water at about a three-fibve to one ratio of water to crystals...its safer!! And works fine.

There are many experts here who will give you detailed instructions.....it is part of the art & mystery of gun making!!

[rogero]

so where can a guy get this stuff?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Track of the Wolf for Wahkon Bay Aqua Fortis,  The Science Company for Ferric Nitrate  http://www.sciencecompany.com/

[rogero]

thanks!

[rogero]

since i am in canada, do you know of any company up here that deals in ferric nitrate? sciece company dont do canada

[Larry Luck]

If you cannot locate a supplier that will ship to you, you might check with the local high school/trade school chemistry teacher.
Larry Luck

[rogero]

never would of thought of that! thanx!

[northwoodsdave]

Getting back to gun building:

I'm new at this myself and have taken a slightly different tack.  I invested in several good videos, which I have watched time and again.  I also assembled several kits, those "cheap, nasty, Spanish" things that at least get you working hands on.  And, from a purely financial standpoint, if you really screw up on one of these, you aren't out a whole lot.

I figured rather than starting with a project costing several hundred dollars, I risked ruining a 75.00 kit.  And basically the worst I could end up with was a ruined stock, so the rest of my investment was still safe. 

Now that I've got some better parts, I see why people so strongly recommend the higher quality (and priced) items.  But the first projects were for practice and I made mistakes that cost me a lot less.  I also took more risks (cutting a dovetail into a barrel worth a few dollars is much less stressful than trying your first dovetail on two hundred dollars worth of  fine steel).  And stoning and polishing a rusty old Jukar lock until it works almost as smoothly as a fine Chambers has it's own kind of reward.

Now I'm doing my first "raw" build of a stock, and it's going on the same little Jukar pistol that I first built.  Yes, it's a lot of work on a cheap gun (the darned thing has probably cost me hundreds of dollars in the past year  )  but when I do put out the money for a Chambers kit (I already have my eye on one) I'll have some background and experience to bring to the building of it.

Just my opinion...

David L

[rogero]

David,  some great ideas, theres a company up here that make a rip off kinda hawkins flint lock in kit form,
(gotta check if they still do) fer about 300.  can we say quality? that i should be able to do something with
and of course i dont need a license for it  at the very least i could practice carving and engraving
and its an actual functioning bang stick! so i think my wife will inherit it. as well heaven forbid i ever have kids,,, itll probably go to them
as far as the videos go wich do you recommend? and where does a budding builder get em?
Regards
Rog

[northmn]

About every thing you need in videos is available from the better suppliers, such as Track of the Wolf, Log Cabin, and maybe MBS (I order a lot from them but haven't bought any instructions manuals for a while).  I remember starting off with an instruction sheelt for a precarved from I think Log cabin.  There is also a pretty good tutorial section on this site.  Go slow.  Some of the things recommended, like Aqua Fortis, I do not recommend for a beginner.  There are good simple rub on water and alchohol based stains that work well.  Some things require development of an "eye" before they work well.  The best tutorial is the ability to have a experienced builder to show your work to and get advice (it can be the worst as some builders have not made 20 guns but one gun 20 times).  You are going to be amazed how much wood you take off and how little you leave.

DP