Fire danger from roundball patches

[Crossed Arrows]

Hello the camp!  I'm new to this forum and enjoying it very much.  It's already evident to me that there are some very knowledgeable shooters here, so I've got a question to ask, but  first some background.  I live in the Rocky Mountains of northern Colorado, in the canyon of the Cache La Poudre River and I just step outside and wander the hillsides in my neighborhood, carrying my TVM Early Virginia flintlock rifle or my longbow.  I'm retired, so I get to play.

Question:  What is the safest patch material for muzzleloaders?  I have my opinion, but respect yours and hope to find the best.  Fire danger is always a problem in the Rockies because the air is dry and we get very little rainfall.  In fact, last summer we had to evacuate as a major forest fire came roaring over the ridgetops only 300 yards from our home.  Out of 17 homes in my gulch, 5 burned to the ground that night and over 250 homes burned in an area of almost 90,000 acres.  Other parts of the west burned badly also and I mention this as a caution to anyone who comes out here to hunt or otherwise enjoy the Rockies.

[ottawa]

most shooters use a cotton patch of the thickness that works for their rifle. lubes very from shooter to shooter bust I would sudjest using a oil /grease based lube they don't dry out and I have not heard of any really smoldering but I do not know every thing  just my 2 cents

[axelp]

We have fire risk in our woods and mtns too.

When the fire risk is really high? I choose to not go out in the woods with my flintlock... Since the high fire risk usually occur in the dead of summer--and most of our hunting seasons occur in fall and spring? its not a great sacrafice. For target shooting, I simply police my shooting area very closely, looking for smoldering patches and whisps of smoke. I even wait for a time-- and closely inspect the range before I leave.

I will often use a greased chamois as a patch when hunting. or if I am target shooting, I use a cloth patch and lots of spit.

The smoothbore is the biggest risk in my mind because of the dry paper cards... but I have never actually seen burning embers on the ground. but I still look--and look--and look.

best to ya

K

[SCLoyalist]

Over the years I've seen smoldering patches on the ground that kept smoldering for a few minutes until the firing line went cold and they could be stomped out.   Never have seen open flames, but seems conceivable that a glowing patch in dry grass with a wind blowing could catch.  Were I going to try to take extra precautions,  I'd probably go with my regular ball/patch separated from the powder by about 50 grains by volume of cream of wheat or cornmeal.   I've done that with a gun that was shredding and burning patches (affecting accuracy) and the inert filler seems to act as a firewall and keeps the recovered patch from looking the least bit singed.

[Kermit]

We had a grass fire get going on our woods walk course about 15 years back. This in WETstern Washington state. It was Labor Day and after a dry August. It can happen.

[George Sutton]

I have seen fires that started with burning patches. Remember cotton is charred to use in fire starting.

Centershot

[Roger Fisher]

Too loose a ball and patch combo will/can and has set the undercover afire.

[Candle Snuffer]

The only time I've seen smoldering patches is when someone was using Crisco as a patch lube.  When I do use a patch lube I will normally use the TC 1000+ lube (hunting).  Other wise for target shooting I just use spit. 

[Crossed Arrows]

Many thanks for your replies.

I should have mentioned that I have seen numerous patches smoldering, mostly at a range that I visited many years ago.  These days, living in the mountains, almost all of my shooting is done in the forest and I am trying to find the best patch/lube combination to severely limit fire danger.

Do any of you know of actual testing that has been done of various patch/lube combinations?

What are your thoughts on pure linen?

[Standing Bear]

Welcome CA. You started here w a great question. We have the same problem in drought striken Central Tx. Have seen and smelled many a smoldering patch over the years but luckily they were all caught before a flame started.

I have never heard of any tests or experimenting done on the subj.  I don't get to the range often but will pay more attention when working on load combinations in the future.
TC

[smallpatch]

If your patch/ball/lube combination is right, you should NEVER have a smoldering patch.  Mostly, it is caused from too loose a combination, causing a burn through on the patch.  Not only a fire hazard, but very detrimental to accuracy as well.
Do your time on the range before you go out in the woods.  Get that combo right, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about it.

[Dphariss]

Hello the camp!  I'm new to this forum and enjoying it very much.  It's already evident to me that there are some very knowledgeable shooters here, so I've got a question to ask, but  first some background.  I live in the Rocky Mountains of northern Colorado, in the canyon of the Cache La Poudre River and I just step outside and wander the hillsides in my neighborhood, carrying my TVM Early Virginia flintlock rifle or my longbow.  I'm retired, so I get to play.

Question:  What is the safest patch material for muzzleloaders?  I have my opinion, but respect yours and hope to find the best.  Fire danger is always a problem in the Rockies because the air is dry and we get very little rainfall.  In fact, last summer we had to evacuate as a major forest fire came roaring over the ridgetops only 300 yards from our home.  Out of 17 homes in my gulch, 5 burned to the ground that night and over 250 homes burned in an area of almost 90,000 acres.  Other parts of the west burned badly also and I mention this as a caution to anyone who comes out here to hunt or otherwise enjoy the Rockies.

Linen is stronger and has a higher ignition point IIRC.
Once a good load in found burning patches are not much of a problem. But all patching is not created equal and some bolts of cloth are weak and may fail, unnoticed when loaded or under the pressure of firing. I have had this happen. Some patch lubes will weaken cotton over time.
If blown patches is a concern. Find some 100% linen of similar thickness to you normal patching and see how it works. Linen typically loads harder than cotton, less compressible so slightly thinner may be OK.


Dan

[Dphariss]

If your patch/ball/lube combination is right, you should NEVER have a smoldering patch.  Mostly, it is caused from too loose a combination, causing a burn through on the patch.  Not only a fire hazard, but very detrimental to accuracy as well.
Do your time on the range before you go out in the woods.  Get that combo right, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about it.

One should "never" say "never". Bad/weak material, that comes form the same place/company etc as the last piece, can cause failures and smoldering patches. BTDT.

Dan

[axelp]

Well small-patch, you might not worry about burning down the forest when you have "dialed in the perfect patch/ball/grease combo," but you probably do not own a house in that forest either.

I have seen smoldering patches very rarely out of my own gun, but I have stomped out a few from others.... I would encourage anyone that frequents the woods when its hot and dry especially in the west, to make @!*% sure you have dialed in your load... AND THEN ALSO make @!*% sure you do not leave any smoldering patches on the ground, by policing what you leave in the woods.

I live in the woods that people come to play in... I have seen some pretty stupid, ignorant people that have left all sorts of $#@*--both on fire and not.... I know I am preaching to the choir here, but...

[Crossed Arrows]

I agree with the necessity of working up the right patch/ball/lube combination and that is what I have done, but I'm always looking for the best.  With my TVM Early Virginia flintlock, I've coned the muzzle, and I use a hickory ramrod because this is my field rifle.  For this rifle I use .520 roundballs with .020 pillow ticking or .026 roundballs with .015 cotton patching.  Smooth, easy loading and very good accuracy with either one, although my old eyes are worse every year.

I've tried many different lubes over the years, but I've settled on using Trapper's Pure Mink Oil with loading blocks or spit for patching at the muzzle.  Good patches, no burn through and I find that the mink oil lubed patches are still moist after shooting.  A spit patch will occasionally smolder, especially if it's been loaded for awhile and had time to dry out so I'll probably stay with pre-lubed patching.

Now I'm going to try linen because of its higher ignition temperature mentioned above and its historical aspect.         

[axelp]

RE: smoothbore shooting. The tight patch fit is not necessarily required for accuracy-- sometimes wadding only is used and this seems to be the worst culprit for depositing smoldering stuff in the field, from what I have seen at some of the outings I have attended in the past.

I have heard that in Montana, they actually have times of the year when BPCR is not allowed due to fire risk. I would think a flinter (rifle or smooth) has more risk of fire than an 1874 Sharps.

K

[Dphariss]

RE: smoothbore shooting. The tight patch fit is not necessarily required for accuracy-- sometimes wadding only is used and this seems to be the worst culprit for depositing smoldering stuff in the field, from what I have seen at some of the outings I have attended in the past.

I have heard that in Montana, they actually have times of the year when BPCR is not allowed due to fire risk. I would think a flinter (rifle or smooth) has more risk of fire than an 1874 Sharps.

K

Basically its not safe to shoot in Stage I. Must be in a completely cleared area at least 6 ft in diameter to smoke outside a vehicle or building. I did not shoot ANYTHING pretty much all summer even modern CF since we were Stage II (Extreme)  for much of the summer. Responsible parties can be billed for the cost of fighting the fire.

The Federal, State and local agencies/gov'ts set the restrictions for the Federal, State and County. The County commissioners set the restrictions for the county.
Dan

[Crossed Arrows]

I don't have experience (yet) with smoothbores, but I do have a bit of experience with BPCR.  I shot paper patched black powder cartridges for awhile and noticed that there could be some smoldering paper fragments out front, so that would be dangerous.

The way that I look at all of this is that if I am going to shoot as much as I can for as many years as I can out in the forest, I have to be as careful with every shot as I can.

One of these days I'll post some photos of the burn area close to where I live.  It is devastated and in this climate it will take many decades for a new forest to grow.

[hanshi]

Welcome to ALF, Crossed Arrows.  In nearly 50 years of shooting muzzleloaders I really can't recall an instance of having a patch smolder more than a few seconds and it wouldn't have been more than a time or two.  I've never seen an op wad or paper stuffing smolder when fired.  IMHO there's more fire danger from the pan flash than the patch.  It pays to be super vigilant in the dry woods.

[Hungry Horse]

 I wound up fighting fire the first time I killed a deer with an old CVA kentucky, years ago. I was using Crisco for patch lube. Since then I have tried a lot of different lubes for summertime shooting here in California ( our deer season starts the second Sat. of August). The one that has never showed any signs of smoldering is a venison tallow base, with mink oil, or neatsfoot oil, even bear oil, or something similar,  just to keep it from being to stiff. venison tallow, or mutton tallow, has a very high flash point, and is nearly impossible to ignite from momentary contact with flame, such as in your barrel.


                           Hungry Horse

[axelp]

Yes Calif deer season starts in early Fall for most areas, and it can still be very dry thru October.

I have stomped out smoking wadding from more than a half dozen smoothbore incidents, but maybe only a couple rifle patch incidents in the 12 or so years I have been shooting flintlocks. Any one of them could have been devastating to the woods. The amount if down wood and dry brush etc. has become a real problem due to the years of having no real management plan here in CA.

In the dry woods out west, it does not take much at all to get a fire going.

best to all

K

[Crossed Arrows]

Hungry Horse - Thanks for the info on tallow and mink oil or the others. 

Ken - You bring up a very good point about lack of management in our forests.  That is certainly the case here in the national forests in Colorado.  They will show up heroically to fight when a fire starts and spend huge amounts of money on it.  The High Park Fire last summer cost about 40 million dollars!  However, our employees, the US Forest Service, does practically nothing to PREVENT FOREST FIRES.  They drive around in their pickup trucks counting the trees that have been infested with pine beetles, but they do not actively thin out the forest or cut significant fire breaks BEFORE a fire starts to contain fires in relatively small areas.  Some creative thinking would do wonders to maintain OUR FORESTS in a healthy way and it could be done economically by working with private citizens who want to use or market lumber.  Oh heck, I won't get started on that subject.
 
Do any of you know if there is a listing of ignition temperatures for various oils?

[Jim Thomas]

It has always been a concern of mine.   I've shot alot of the green teflon coated patches and havn't witnessed one yet that smoulderd.  Maybe others have witnessed different??   

When those tinder dry conditions exist, I usually do something else.     

[Crossed Arrows]

I agree about doing something else when conditions are very bad.  I'll switch to a Colt 45 with lead bullets instead.  Or I'll just wander around with my longbow, although now my targets in the forest are all burned to ash.  Rabbit brush and Mulleins were very good targets for a rubber blunt.  I would just pick a spot and shoot and I could see if my arrow went through that spot.

Now, in the burn area, with all of the grass and ground cover gone, there are thousands more rocks visible and they are all blackened by the fire, so I pick a spot on a rock and shoot a lead bullet at it.  Splat!  I can see a lead spot where I hit.

Strange thing about this forest fire was that it ran through the treetops, dropping burning embers here and there and the fire itself created its own weather, so you'll see a big patch of burn area, then a patch of green, then burn, etc.  The only thing really predictable is that you do not want to be uphill from a fire.

[axelp]

Summertime is a good time to go paddle the canoe.
Then come Fall, early Winter and Spring, I take my fiintlocks out for long walks in the woods looking for critters. The heavy part of Winter is for sitting by the fire, and telling stories...and maybe an occasional snowshoe hike.

variety is the spice of life.

K