Author Topic: Wooden Patchbox Gun (Read 16980 times)

Fullstock longrifle · « **on:** February 03, 2013, 08:22:08 PM »

I picked up this gun over the weekend and I've been trying to figure out exactly what it is. I do know that its early, with what appears to be a curly maple stock (the original finish is very nice). The patchbox lid, although old, apparently is a period replacement as it seems to have been made from a different type of wood.

This is a little out of the scope of what I normally collect, so I was hoping someone here could shed some additional light on it. By the way, I've had it apart and there are no proofs on the barrel or markings on the lock. Everything is original to the gun, with no modern restoration.

All opinions welcomed.

Frank

Topknot · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2013, 08:40:10 PM »

Great, great find. IM too inexperienced to tell you what school its from , but i do know it is from a well known school. the shape of the butt really defines it. the stock is beautiful. well cared for it seems to me. I also like the guard. The hole in the guard must be for attaching a sling. I will let the more knowledgeable members take over. Good looking gun!!

topknot

debnal · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2013, 08:53:21 PM »

WOW, what a great looking gun! While I am not sure exactly where it might have been made, I can offer the following:
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of New England fowlers look like.... and
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of HVF New York fowlers look like.... and
We know what dozens, if not hundreds, of Penn. fowlers look like....but

What do Southern (Virginia/North Carolina) mid 18th century fowlers look like?

This gun looks to me like what a modern maker would come up with if you asked him to build his interpretation of a mid 18th century southern fowler.

Also, it looks like it might be associated with the KIP fowler in RCA vol. 1 No. 16
I have heard of others (2) that also might be associated with your gun and the KIP gun.

What an interesting gun!
Al

lexington1 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2013, 09:22:40 PM »

Wow Frank. What a neat early gun. Is it a rifle? It reminds a bit of the rifle described in Shumways "Longrifles of Note', Vol.2, page 142.

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2013, 10:28:23 PM »

It's a fowler Wes, with an Octagon to round barrel. You're right, it does look similar to the gun in Longrifles of Note.

Al, I agree with your point about Southern fowlers, you just don't see them out there, what happened to them? Then again, what does a Southern fowler actually look like, could this be one?

Frank

Dan'l 1946 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2013, 11:11:34 PM »

Interesting piece. What is the barrel length and bore? The side plate and trigger guard give it a martial look and the carving is more in a civilian vein. Could it be a composite gun? There is also a European flavor to the cheek piece.
Dan

James Rogers · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2013, 11:24:22 PM »

Nice old piece Frank!

I see contenental influences.

As far as the VA Fowling guns and where they went....the earlier you go the more those VA fowling guns will be English made IMHO.
IIRC Mark Elliott once had a circa 1800 Winchester made fowling gun at one time...a PA gun made in VA.

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2013, 11:41:14 PM »

The barrel is fairly short Dan, it's just over 32 inches long with about a 60 caliber bore, I don't thinks it's been shortened, but it could have been many years ago.

One other thing I noticed. Behind the cheek piece there are some faint initials and what appears to be a date, 175?, I can't make out the last number, but 1750's seems about right for the gun.

Frank

debnal · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2013, 12:07:27 AM »

James,
I disagree on the early VA fowling pieces. All early ones were English made? Wallace Gusslar once showed me an advert from a newspaper from the Virginia Eastern Shore. It was from a gunsmith who stated he was making fine fowling pieces there for sale. The newspaper carried the date 1704 or 1714. What did his fowler look like? Did it look like a NE fowler?, a HVF? a PA fowler? Or, did it have its own unique style? The people of NE, NY and PA all developed their own distinctive stock style. There's no reason to believe the southern makers didn't do the same.
Al

DaveM · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2013, 12:24:25 AM »

Frank, that's a beauty and in wonderful condition! Looks like an "american" conversion to percussion, is it a drum conversion? I've always read that is an american trait - would have been here a long time if that is the case.

James Rogers · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2013, 12:29:58 AM »

Al,
Did the ad state that the pieces were offered for sale or that they were manufacturing them here?
The British mercantile economy seemed to rule the day early on.

Frank,
I just keep admiring that gun. If you happen to get more pictures of the full length profile, trigger guard and buttplate return I know I am not the only one that would be interested in seeing them.

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2013, 01:46:44 AM »

Here are the last few pictures of the gun I have for now. Thanks for all of your comments so far.

Frank

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:07:29 AM »

Frank that's a wonderful early piece but I think it could have been made anywhere, and trying to ascribe a location is likely to prove futile. Very interesting regardless of where it was made, and very definitely an early one.

The tang carving reminds me a little of the Hudson River piece at the end of RCAII, and some of the leafy carved details remind me of the early heavily carved Bucks/Northampton rifle that Bruce M. found years ago and sold to the guy in Canada. In fact this piece resonates with my "gut" to the tune of that one, despite being different in many ways also. Kind of the same heavily European influence.

debnal · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:22:20 AM »

James,
The ad Wallace showed me stated that the gunsmith was manufacturing pistols, rifles, and fowlers. Of course Wallace was most interested in the rifle part of the ad. By the middle of the 18th century Virginia had its own regional style of furniture making so it seems logical to me that they would have developed their own style of firearm. There are a lot of fowlers out there that just do not fit into the NE/HVF/PA style and I just thought that Frank's gun might be one of them. As Eric says, we may never know, but the gun does speak for itself.
I've always been a student of the American fowler and even Tom Grinslade's book is mute on the Southern guns. Call me crazy but I think they are out there but maybe we are not aware of what we are looking for.
Frank told me that the other three guns that relate to the KIP fowler and his gun were made of cherry, birch and ash. Hardly the choice of Europeans for stock wood. Perhaps they were stocked here.
Al

Majorjoel · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2013, 03:44:56 AM »

Very nice Frank! I have been looking at your pictures most of the evening and keep coming back for more study. I cannot get the notion of French influence out of my mind here. The guard and the beaver tail cheek mainly have a strong French Huguenot feel. I really like it!

James Rogers · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2013, 04:01:41 AM »

Al,
If you find that ad, please share. I am familiar with ads for having fowling guns for sale at comparable prices to what they sold for in London, repair and re-stocking, rifling barrels but not for manufacturing fowling pieces. Would love to have that for my references

For this gun,does everyone see all the parts of Euro origin and French design? If so, this would have been utilizing parts off an older gun or component pieces sold for export to America.
What would be the earliest we could date these parts in cutting edge Paris? Would that date and styling also coincide with component parts imported to America in piece?

debnal · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2013, 04:55:17 AM »

James,
I sure wish I had made a copy of it. I was at Wallace's about 30 years ago when I saw it. Too bad Wallace is not reading this thread. I think he could add to this in a much more positive way.
Al

Avlrc · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2013, 08:57:14 AM »

Quote from: debnal on February 04, 2013, 04:55:17 AM

James,
I sure wish I had made a copy of it. I was at Wallace's about 30 years ago when I saw it. Too bad Wallace is not reading this thread. I think he could add to this in a much more positive way.
Al

You would not be talking about James Geddy, would you? He advertised in the Virginia Gazette.

Here is the link, scroll down to Precis of The James Geddy Site History
http://research.history.org/DigitalLibrary/View/index.cfm?doc=ResearchReports%5CRR1446.xml

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2013, 09:30:54 AM »

Quote from: James Rogers on February 04, 2013, 04:01:41 AM

Al,
If you find that ad, please share. I am familiar with ads for having fowling guns for sale at comparable prices to what they sold for in London, repair and re-stocking, rifling barrels but not for manufacturing fowling pieces. Would love to have that for my references

For this gun,does everyone see all the parts of Euro origin and French design? If so, this would have been utilizing parts off an older gun or component pieces sold for export to America.
What would be the earliest we could date these parts in cutting edge Paris? Would that date and styling also coincide with component parts imported to America in piece?

Euro parts, most likely French if it is indeed a suite of parts. The sliding wooden patchbox has me "buffaloed". I see it as a mid century stocking. The gunsmith was pretty fresh off the boat, I'd say.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2013, 05:00:29 PM »

I'm not certain I would conclude the hardware is European. Might be, but it doesn't necessarily have the sophistication commonly encountered on this type of work. With that said, there's the possibility it could be from a relatively low grade Euro gun. To me, the hardware just has the feel of something that might have been made over here.

debnal · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2013, 06:22:13 PM »

I have seen the Geddy ad. The one I remember was for another guy who was located on the Eastern Shore of VA.
Al

gunmaker · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2013, 08:17:53 PM »

There are a number of labs that can test wood & tell where it came from. Antique dealers do it all time. Just a thought....Tom

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:52:07 AM »

One thing I immediately noticed when I first looked at the gun was how unsophisticated it was. I find it hard to believe that Europian gunsmiths would produce a gun with such crude and unrefined carving and engraving. I've seen this type of workmanship on guns made in Colonial America, but not Europe. But then again, who knows. Any thoughts?
Frank

Stophel · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2013, 05:53:43 AM »

The gun is Scandinavian. Probably Swedish.

Swedish guns of the 18th century are pretty rare in the U.S., so it's a nice find!

Guns made in Sweden in the 18th century generally follow one of two basic "patterns". One is the more "French-ish" pattern, which this gun is, the other is more like North German guns. Still, these two styles are pretty distinctly Swedish. The round cheekpiece with the big swirl carved behind it is pretty much universal on Swedish guns, and is the big dead giveaway.

Stocks are usually walnut or elm, or occasionally birch. I will presume this one is birch, maybe walnut, can't tell from the photos.

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2013, 06:12:53 AM »

Stophel, that's interesting, do you have any pictures you could post of similar Swedish guns to compare it to?
Frank

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Author Topic: Wooden Patchbox Gun (Read 16980 times)